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Rev 1 standard spars snap like a matchstick


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#1 ian4c

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 11:46 AM

Hello

I recently bought the Rev 1 SLE and found that compared to the EXP it was very sluggish in low wind and Watty suggested in a reply -

"The reason you may have had some trouble getting that Rev 1 up in the air is because of that darned SLE. Throw out that heavy leading edge, and throw in some 3 wrap, and you'll be able to fly that no problem. ;) "

Well, I ordered the lightweight spars from my dealer, I don't think they are 3 wrap (perhaps somebody would kindly explain to a Newbi what this wrap business means) I understand that the spars are the same size, but not in length, as the EXP spars.

The new spars arrived. The first trip out, the wind was not great, in fact, in the first minutes very little wind. I was explaining to my wife Ricci, who was videoing with a still camera, that the Rev 1 was much lighter in these winds and felt good. Then the wind picked up and on the video she is saying " I don't think you can break them Ian, and in the next moment - snap the left spar just breaks like a matchstick! The same strength spars in my EXP have been fine in some very strong winds.

What speed would or would you suggest safe to fly the Rev 1 in light winds? In the video

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Znzj-mPtgJY

does it look like the wind is too strong. I don't think it was more that 6mph. I would be pleased to have the benefit the your advice.

Ian

#2 Stone in Shoe Bob

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 01:34 PM

Well, I ordered the lightweight spars from my dealer, I don't think they are 3 wrap (perhaps somebody would kindly explain to a Newbi what this wrap business means) I understand that the spars are the same size, but not in length, as the EXP spars.


Explained here.
http://www.revkites....hp?showtopic=14

If you say you ordered "lightweight spars" and you don't think they were 3 wrap then I suspect you have "Pro Use" (two wrap), which should only be used in the gentlest of breezes and judging from the sound track on the video, it was howling.

Put this one down to experience, do a bit more research and go out and try again, don't give up, this is a GREAT hobby, stick with it. :)

Oh! and welcome to The Darkside.
:big_starwars:
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#3 ian4c

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 02:49 PM

Put this one down to experience, do a bit more research and go out and try again, don't give up, this is a GREAT hobby, stick with it. :)

Oh! and welcome to The Darkside.
:big_starwars:

Thank you Bob for the reply and for the welcome note. The link was a great help. I now understand ( my supplier didn't). Regarding the wind noise. The camera, an Ixus 950is is a compact with a small hole on the front. Almost no wind and it sounds like a gale. It does perfect video but YouTube compress very much so quality goes out of the window.

The Rods are marked REV 11 Revolution Equipped so that means 4 wrap. I guess that 3 wrap must be lighter / stronger? So when I get the replacement Rod I will keep the set for really light winds.

I won't be giving up anytime soon! Since getting the Rev EXP and Rev 1 SLE I have lost a few lbs and really enjoying the pleasure the Revolution gives. I rather fancy a Blast!

Ian

#4 ilh

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 03:52 PM

The 3-wrap "Ultralight" will be more flexible and more fragile than the 4-wrap "Rev Equipped" you have. 2-wrap "Pro Only" are even more flexy and less durable.

I wonder if that stick had a defect. I didn't notice much leading edge flex before it broke. I know my 2-wrap and 3-wraps will bend a lot more than that in my 1.5 without breaking.

Maybe you got hit by a sudden gust that was 15+? It is good to learn how to remove power from a Rev. You generate the most power when you are flying fast. If you slow it down with brake, it pulls less. If you luff the sail (no brake), it will really pull very little, but you have little control. Both techniques have their place. Finally, if you fly to the side or top edge of the wind "window", you'll have the least pull.

Good luck!

--Lee

#5 FortFlyer

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 03:54 PM

The Rods are marked REV 11 Revolution Equipped so that means 4 wrap. I guess that 3 wrap must be lighter / stronger? So when I get the replacement Rod I will keep the set for really light winds.
Ian


OK first off was that a typo that they were marked Rev 11 were you meaning marked Rev 1 Revolution equipped?

Rev Equipped is the 4 wrap which is for higher winds and if thats what you had you may have gotten a defective rod it looks like it snapped near the ferrule.

While the Rev 1 is a big sail and a 3 wrap (ultra light) and a 4 wrap (rev equipped) should be fine for moderate and heavier winds, even flying in pretty light winds should be no problem for a 3 wrap.

The 2 wrap (professional use) should be left for the lightest of wind conditions while they say 0-10mph for a 1.5 i don't think i would go that high with the bigger sail of the Rev 1 personally.

It didn't look to me like the wind was much over 10-12 mph seeing your shirt in the wind so if that was a 4 wrap you should have been fine all day.

In General what works in a 1.5 to me would be less in the larger sail of the Rev 1, there have been some requests on spar ratings as of late I'm thinking this is a good example of not only spar ratings being needed but if possible also in different kites.
Jim,
Ft. Taber Park & Brenton Point

Rev's are like a carbon framed out-of-body experience

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#6 big bri

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 12:02 AM

Hello and Welcome.Can be many reasons why you had the bad luck.Just give the ferrules a twist and see if they have slipped.They should be fitting equal into each spar with no movement when twisted,but sometimes have a habbit of slipping.This causes the rod to splinter or break when exsposeed to tension at the shorter ferrule side.They may need some super Glue on them.

Just an Idea that may help ya.
Stick at it and keep flying and smileing.


BRIAN... :)

#7 Mike

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 06:34 AM

I have another theory.
An even more common cause of breaking at the ferrule is that the rod wasn't pushed all the way onto the ferrule when the kite was set up.
After setting up the kite, run your hand over the area where the rods attach and feel it to make sure that there isn't a gap between the rods.
Sometimes new rods fit very snug and it's easy to think the rods are fully together when they aren't.
If the center rod is only partially inserted into one of the edge rods, the edge rod can break.

I think this even more likely with a Rev I than a Rev 1.5. The longer rods and larger sail on the Rev 1 put more stress at the ferrule, so you really need the full length of the ferrule in there.

A 4-wrap ("revolution equipped") rod should handle that wind fine, even with a Rev 1.
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#8 wufer

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 10:07 AM

Just to go on from Mike,s answer, here,s how i set up my l/e rods.
I grab the end of the centre rod hard so it cant move in side the l/e tunnel, then with my thumb and fore finger i feel the end of the ferrule, then i feed the outer rod onto the ferrule, and feed it over the ferrule useing my thumb and fore finger. Then i shove the outer rod till i feel it hit the centre rod with a good clunk. Job done. :)

A bit long winded but thats how i do it. :)


Derek

#9 ian4c

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 03:07 PM

OK first off was that a typo that they were marked Rev 11 were you meaning marked Rev 1 Revolution equipped?

Thanks for the info FortFlyer, no it's not a typo. They are marked Rev 11 Revolution Equipped on all 3 rods. Could they be fake Revolution parts, I ask myself? I hope i can attach a picture.

Rev Equipped is the 4 wrap which is for higher winds and if that's what you had you may have gotten a defective rod it looks like it snapped near the ferrule.

Yes, it snapped at the end of the ferrule. I note that the broken rod has a ferrule with a whit insert. My SLE rods on the EXP and Rev 1 are black no white inserts.

It didn't look to me like the wind was much over 10-12 mph seeing your shirt in the wind so if that was a 4 wrap you should have been fine all day.

I really did not think the wind was that strong. The EXP, OK a smaller sail, but I have flown it in some heave wind.


In General what works in a 1.5 to me would be less in the larger sail of the Rev 1, there have been some requests on spar ratings as of late I'm thinking this is a good example of not only spar ratings being needed but if possible also in different kites.

To a beginner, I agree with your thinking on spar ratings

Thank you for your reply.

Ian


IMG_0906.JPG IMG_0896.JPG IMG_0894.JPG IMG_0893.JPG

#10 ian4c

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 03:20 PM

The 3-wrap "Ultralight" will be more flexible and more fragile than the 4-wrap "Rev Equipped" you have. 2-wrap "Pro Only" are even more flexy and less durable.

I wonder if that stick had a defect. I didn't notice much leading edge flex before it broke. I know my 2-wrap and 3-wraps will bend a lot more than that in my 1.5 without breaking.

Maybe you got hit by a sudden gust that was 15+? It is good to learn how to remove power from a Rev. You generate the most power when you are flying fast. If you slow it down with brake, it pulls less. If you luff the sail (no brake), it will really pull very little, but you have little control. Both techniques have their place. Finally, if you fly to the side or top edge of the wind "window", you'll have the least pull.

Good luck!

--Lee


Thank you Lee. You know, I agree with you, there was little or no flex in the leading edge - it just went snap - Never a 15 +. Since staring a few weeks ago I don't think I have seen 15+! And I do wonder if, as mentioned to FortFlyer, if the rod was weak at the end of the ferrule position? Or could the rod be a Chinese copy? From the photos posted, somebody may advise.

Thank you

#11 RevWizard

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:02 PM

Thank you Lee. You know, I agree with you, there was little or no flex in the leading edge - it just went snap - Never a 15 +. Since staring a few weeks ago I don't think I have seen 15+! And I do wonder if, as mentioned to FortFlyer, if the rod was weak at the end of the ferrule position? Or could the rod be a Chinese copy? From the photos posted, somebody may advise.

Thank you

Where did you purchase the rods?
What does the end of the piece that broke off look like?
The reason I ask is that I know of a situation in the far past in Europe where a dealer had cut down a REV I rod and sold it as a REV 1.5 rod. Needless to say it broke very quickly at the joint.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
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World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#12 ian4c

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:07 PM

Hello and Welcome.Can be many reasons why you had the bad luck.Just give the ferrules a twist and see if they have slipped.They should be fitting equal into each spar with no movement when twisted,but sometimes have a habbit of slipping.This causes the rod to splinter or break when exsposeed to tension at the shorter ferrule side.They may need some super Glue on them.

Just an Idea that may help ya.
Stick at it and keep flying and smileing.


BRIAN... :)


Hello Brian, thank you. I will take on board your advice to make sure they are always well in. The 3 rods were delivered 1 x 36", 1 x 36" with a ferrule and 1 x 36 with a ferrule

Good to hear from a UK Flyer. I have yet to meet one!

Ian

#13 Mike

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:12 PM

The leading edge Rev II rods are 37" and Rev I rods are 36"
So maybe those are cut down Rev II rods?
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#14 ian4c

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:36 PM

Where did you purchase the rods?
What does the end of the piece that broke off look like?
The reason I ask is that I know of a situation in the far past in Europe where a dealer had cut down a REV I rod and sold it as a REV 1.5 rod. Needless to say it broke very quickly at the joint.


Hello John,

Purchased from a dealer in West Midlands. He has been very helpful. I asked him to get me Rev 1 - 3 wrap but there was some confusion as to what 3 wrap was. So I said in that case, that I would be pleased to have the original rods as supplied for the Rev 1. My Rev one was supplied as a Rev 1 SLE. My feeling was that if the old or original 1/4" rods were good for say up to a 15 mph wind, then that would be fine. I asumed, that is what I got. But as you may have seen on the poor video the leading edge snapped well before any serious flexing.

What does the end look like. I posted some pictures earlier.

My EXP has the same size 1/4" rods and I have been in strong winds with it. Certinly, much stronger that my experience when I broke the Rev 1.

I just looked at your site John. Gob smacked! Most interesting. Excellent photography.

Thanks

Ian

#15 ian4c

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:52 PM

I have another theory.
An even more common cause of breaking at the ferrule is that the rod wasn't pushed all the way onto the ferrule when the kite was set up.
After setting up the kite, run your hand over the area where the rods attach and feel it to make sure that there isn't a gap between the rods.
Sometimes new rods fit very snug and it's easy to think the rods are fully together when they aren't.
If the center rod is only partially inserted into one of the edge rods, the edge rod can break.

I think this even more likely with a Rev I than a Rev 1.5. The longer rods and larger sail on the Rev 1 put more stress at the ferrule, so you really need the full length of the ferrule in there.

A 4-wrap ("revolution equipped") rod should handle that wind fine, even with a Rev 1.


Thank you Mike. Yes, good points to remember. I do make sure that the rods are fully together. The break was at the end of the ferrule. The damaged rod is 2" short suggesting that it was fully home.

Ian

#16 FortFlyer

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:55 PM

Hello Brian, thank you. I will take on board your advice to make sure they are always well in. The 3 rods were delivered 1 x 36", 1 x 36" with a ferrule and 1 x 36 with a ferrule

Good to hear from a UK Flyer. I have yet to meet one!

Ian


Those are the wrong rods for your kite plain out, while the lengths may be correct you should have 1 rod (center) with 2 ferrules and 2 without. while you still have the ferrules in the same place and they should still act the same, I'm not sure if Rev 2 rods are made differently and seeing as they are only 2 rods to a set, as you have a Rev 1 right there I would say they are wrong.
Jim,
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Rev's are like a carbon framed out-of-body experience

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#17 ian4c

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 05:14 PM

The leading edge Rev II rods are 37" and Rev I rods are 36"
So maybe those are cut down Rev II rods?


John, That's interesting. I bought the Rev as a Rev 1 SLE. I just checked and the rods are 36" and 1/2". Marked Revolution Equipped. So are these not SLE rods? I was confused earlier when it was suggested that there was no such thing as Rev 11 rods and they should be marked as Rev 1 Revolution Equipped.

So if they are Rev 11, 37" rods which seems to be the answer, should they have been OK in the my Rev 1. I am getting a replacement for the broken rod. And if so, in your considered opinion, what would be the top wind speed please.

Thank you. I'm beginning to see the light!

Ian

#18 RevWizard

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 06:15 PM

The leading edge Rev II rods are 37" and Rev I rods are 36"
So maybe those are cut down Rev II rods?

I don't have any REV II rods with me, so I can't check the length.
Are you sure they are only 37" long? I was thinking they were longer around 38 or 39".
My theory is that REV II rods were cut down to 36" thus the extra wrapping for the ferrule section is lost thus creating a weak point.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#19 RevWizard

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 06:33 PM

John, That's interesting. I bought the Rev as a Rev 1 SLE. I just checked and the rods are 36" and 1/2". Marked Revolution Equipped. So are these not SLE rods? I was confused earlier when it was suggested that there was no such thing as Rev 11 rods and they should be marked as Rev 1 Revolution Equipped.

So if they are Rev 11, 37" rods which seems to be the answer, should they have been OK in the my Rev 1. I am getting a replacement for the broken rod. And if so, in your considered opinion, what would be the top wind speed please.

Thank you. I'm beginning to see the light!

Ian

37" rods would work if you can stretch your bungees far enough. However, I would not do it except in emergency.

How long are the rods marked REV II? 36", 37" or specify?
Do the extra wraps on the rods at the end cover the length plus some of the ferrule length? You should see about 2" on each end where the rods is a bit thicker on the outside. Some newer rods, this is hard to detect.

REV I spars labeled "Revolution Equipped"(commonly called 4 wrap), considering they have not been physically damaged before, should able to handle a wind stronger then you can handle. I have photos of the leading edge bending more then 90 degrees in very strong winds.
REV I rods labeled "Professional Only" (commonly called 2 wrap) are somewhat sensitive. If the wind is gusty, don't use them. If the wind is strong enough that can fly your REV I easily with the "Revolution Equipped" rods, don't try using the "Professional Only rods. The wind is probably too strong with the "Professional Only" rods.
For the REV I there is also the "Ultra Light"(commonly called 3 wrap) rods. They are between the other two types in flex and strength. They are not that easy to find, but they are available. There is also an even stronger set of rods labeled "Stiff"(commonly called 6 wrap). They are special order only.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#20 FortFlyer

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 06:36 PM

John, That's interesting. I bought the Rev as a Rev 1 SLE. I just checked and the rods are 36" and 1/2". Marked Revolution Equipped. So are these not SLE rods? I was confused earlier when it was suggested that there was no such thing as Rev 11 rods and they should be marked as Rev 1 Revolution Equipped.

Ian


Ian the SLE refers to the 1/2" diameter hence Super Leading Edge as opposed to the standard 1/4" rods both are made in the Ultra Light 3-wrap and Rev Equipped 4-wrap, my concern is why they sent you Rev II rods for a Rev 1, I guess its just a sticker on a rod but the ferrule setup is way different.

Maybe I'm just picky :confused!:

lol John and I are both answering at the same time
Jim,
Ft. Taber Park & Brenton Point

Rev's are like a carbon framed out-of-body experience

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