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What is the purpose of long leader with knots on the handles.


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#1 Captainbob

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:12 PM

I see that some of the Revs come with a long leader that extends from the top of the handle almost to the bottom , with knots in it to adjust where you can connect your top lines to. What I would like to know is what exactly does adding a few inches to the length of the top line accomplish? Does it make the handles less able to control forward flight, or make the kite less sensitive to launching?  I just can't figure out, how this affects the control of the kite aerodynamically. 


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#2 SkyPuppet

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:56 PM

Hey Captainbob,
Longer top leaders let you adjust for even more sensitivity to brake/reverse inputs. So, with your line connected to knots farther away from you on the top leader, you will have an easier time with brake/reverse inputs. This does take away from forward drive, and you might have a harder time launching. You are changing the kites angle of attack, as I'm sure you're aware of considering you're R/C background.

Did your SLE package come with adjustable leaders? If knot ;) plenty of topics abound on leaders here.

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#3 SparkieRob

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:30 PM

It has a lot to do with ergonomics. Fly for a while with your wrists quite vertical (not a lot of brake) and they can become sore. Dial in some brake and your wrists can rotate back to a more comfortable orientation with the kite still vertical to the wind. Dial in a heap of brake and your wrists (and therefore handles too) are almost parallel to the ground.

With a brake heavy setting you need to "whump" the sail to initiate drive as there isn't much, is any, handle rotation left.

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#4 stroke survivor

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:00 PM

The long leaders help to "square" the sail up to the wind! Let's you use winds that fill the middle of the sail for control and power! The short pigtails that come with SLEs are great for launching, but leave a little to be desired in gusts! By using a setting away from the end of the top of the handle, you can more easily control the kite in gusts and uneven winds! You mentioned the longer leaders available, they come with the "B" series kites as standard!! Many of us find they provide more control by making the kite more neutral, drive wise! Kite is more responsive to our commands, we're not reacting to the kite as much!


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#5 Captainbob

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:23 AM

The long leaders help to "square" the sail up to the wind! Let's you use winds that fill the middle of the sail for control and power! The short pigtails that come with SLEs are great for launching, but leave a little to be desired in gusts! By using a setting away from the end of the top of the handle, you can more easily control the kite in gusts and uneven winds! You mentioned the longer leaders available, they come with the "B" series kites as standard!! Many of us find they provide more control by making the kite more neutral, drive wise! Kite is more responsive to our commands, we're not reacting to the kite as much!

 

Thanks, that make sense. I already made a set of these long leaders, but hadn't put them on the handles yet, because I wasn't sure what their purpose was. Could have used them yesterday, it was pretty gusty at times. 


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#6 Captainbob

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:24 AM

Hey Captainbob,
Longer top leaders let you adjust for even more sensitivity to brake/reverse inputs. So, with your line connected to knots farther away from you on the top leader, you will have an easier time with brake/reverse inputs. This does take away from forward drive, and you might have a harder time launching. You are changing the kites angle of attack, as I'm sure you're aware of considering you're R/C background.

Did your SLE package come with adjustable leaders? If knot wink.png plenty of topics abound on leaders here.

 

No it didn't come with adjustables, but I already made a set of them after reading about them. Just haven't put them on the handles yet. 


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#7 Reef Runner

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:34 AM

CB, try beginning at about the middle knot, and going from there.  Once you get to flying, and things are feeling more comfortable, you may want to mark that knot, and use that as a benchmark, going forward.  Then you can always move in or out, from there, but it can be a future starting point.  Attach the bottom lines to the short leaders, at the bottoms of the handles, and leave it there.  Do your adjusting on the longer top leaders, that you made with the knots. 

 

Remember this:

Moving the TOP attachment point IN (towards the handle) for more drive, is the same thing as moving the BOTTOM OUT for less brake

and vice versa

Moving the TOP attachment point OUT (away from the handle) for less drive, is the same thing as moving the BOTTOM IN for more brake

 

This is why most of us make our adjustments, at the longer top leader, that has the numerous knots.  Makes life simpler ! smile.png

(Actually, some folks do the exact opposite, with the longer leader at the bottom, and the short at the top, but I would say the majority do as described above)

 

As for launching (from the upright position) when set up with less drive, rather than trying to "uncomfortably", tilt your wrists so far back to launch, try turning your handles horizontal to the ground, with the tops to the handles pointing in, towards each other, and out in front of you.  Then give them a good sharp pump, pulling the tops of the handles straight towards your chest, gut, or even beside your hips.  This is referred to as a "quick pump", and will launch the kite, without you having to rock your wrist, so far back.  Once in the air, just fly as normal, but with the added amount of brake, you'll find a much better experience..............   Hope this all makes sense.....ani_victory.gif   

 

Eventually, you'll be able to do this from the preferred, "inverted" position, but you'll put the pump emphasis on the bottoms of the handles.

 

Works for me, anyway cat_shy.gif


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#8 Captainbob

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:09 PM

I tried flying with the long leaders today, and I kept having problems with the line tangling on the brake part of the handle, while trying to launch. I finally disconnected the long leaders, and went back to the stock leader that was on the SLE, since I didn't have any problems with them, and I only had a 3/4" difference in the top line length with the long leader. Will have to figure out why this was happening. 


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#9 SparkieRob

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:30 PM

Describe, step by step, what you were doing. Might be able to reconstruct you launch procedure.

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#10 Captainbob

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:18 PM

Describe, step by step, what you were doing. Might be able to reconstruct you launch procedure.

 

 

Normal procedure, same as I was doing with the stock leaders that came with my new SLE. Because of the added length of the top leaders, seems like I need more forward on the handles, to lift off, and then the brake side of the line, catches the top line.  Since the only change, was the top line being extended by 1 knot or about 3/4 of an inch, I barely have enough forward drive to launch. Anyway, I went back to stock leaders, and the problem disappeared. 


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#11 SkyPuppet

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:30 PM

I tried flying with the long leaders today, and I kept having problems with the line tangling on the brake part of the handle, while trying to launch. I finally disconnected the long leaders, and went back to the stock leader that was on the SLE, since I didn't have any problems with them, and I only had a 3/4" difference in the top line length with the long leader. Will have to figure out why this was happening. 


Ah, what you have experienced is the reason there are no-snag (or snagless) handles/mods available. The metal triangle ring (aka "hog" or D ring/clip) can fold backwards, snagging the line on the handle. Search for Stone In Shoe Bob's no-snag mods, or check out no-snag handles available through Revolution and their dealers- I got mine through A Wind Of Change ;)

I'd link you to the topics, but it's a pain through the smartphone :/ sorry

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#12 Reef Runner

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:06 PM

 

 

Normal procedure, same as I was doing with the stock leaders that came with my new SLE. Because of the added length of the top leaders, seems like I need more forward on the handles, to lift off, and then the brake side of the line, catches the top line.  Since the only change, was the top line being extended by 1 knot or about 3/4 of an inch, I barely have enough forward drive to launch. Anyway, I went back to stock leaders, and the problem disappeared. 

 

Why didn't you just move the top lines in one knot, rather than changing leaders.  Why would you do that ?  Just curious !  That's what all those knots are for - adjustments !!

 

The reason that you were able to take off, with the stock leaders, was because that added drive to your set-up, simply because they were shorter.  Same thing would have happened if you had moved top lines in a knot.  You got to have more brake, to ever fly successfully.  Too much drive will make the kite to quick, fast, and responsive........all characteristics that you've told us you didn't want ?

 

Now, I'm really confuse as to what you are doing ?

 

Did you read post #7 ?......http://www.revkites....les/#entry94473  Explained about launching with a lot of brake, using the pump motion.  You can't expect your wrists to bend back that far............

 

Again...........As for launching (from the upright position) when set up with less drive, rather than trying to "uncomfortably", tilt your wrists so far back to launch, try turning your handles horizontal to the ground, with the tops to the handles pointing in, towards each other, and out in front of you.  Then give them a good sharp pump, pulling the tops of the handles straight towards your chest, gut, or even beside your hips.  This is referred to as a "quick pump", and will launch the kite, without you having to rock your wrist, so far back.  Once in the air, just fly as normal, but with the added amount of brake, you'll find a much better experience..............   Hope this all makes sense.....ani_victory.gif


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#13 Reef Runner

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:15 PM

 

 

Normal procedure, same as I was doing with the stock leaders that came with my new SLE. Because of the added length of the top leaders, seems like I need more forward on the handles, to lift off, and then the brake side of the line, catches the top line.  Since the only change, was the top line being extended by 1 knot or about 3/4 of an inch, I barely have enough forward drive to launch. Anyway, I went back to stock leaders, and the problem disappeared. 

 

You just can't bend your wrist back that far.............PUMP LAUNCH IT !! ani_victory.gif


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#14 Captainbob

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:16 PM

 

Why didn't you just move the top lines in one knot, rather than changing leaders.  Why would you do that ?  Just curious !  That's what all those knots are for - adjustments !!

 

The reason that you were able to take off, with the stock leaders, was because that added drive to your set-up, simply because they were shorter.  Same thing would have happened if you had moved top lines in a knot.  You got to have more brake, to ever fly successfully.  Too much drive will make the kite to quick, fast, and responsive........all characteristics that you've told us you didn't want ?

 

Now, I'm really confuse as to what you are doing ?

 

Did you read post #7 ?......http://www.revkites....les/#entry94473  Explained about launching with a lot of brake, using the pump motion.  You can't expect your wrists to bend back that far............

 

Again...........As for launching (from the upright position) when set up with less drive, rather than trying to "uncomfortably", tilt your wrists so far back to launch, try turning your handles horizontal to the ground, with the tops to the handles pointing in, towards each other, and out in front of you.  Then give them a good sharp pump, pulling the tops of the handles straight towards your chest, gut, or even beside your hips.  This is referred to as a "quick pump", and will launch the kite, without you having to rock your wrist, so far back.  Once in the air, just fly as normal, but with the added amount of brake, you'll find a much better experience..............   Hope this all makes sense.....ani_victory.gif

 

I couldn't figure out what was catching, because I would clear the catch, so i could control the kite. I was thinking that it was the long leader that was catching, but wasn't certain. 


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#15 Captainbob

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:17 PM

 

You just can't bend your wrist back that far.............PUMP LAUNCH !! ani_victory.gif

 

Tried that, not enough wind today to launch more than a couple of feet. 


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#16 Captainbob

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:31 PM

Ah, what you have experienced is the reason there are no-snag (or snagless) handles/mods available. The metal triangle ring (aka "hog" or D ring/clip) can fold backwards, snagging the line on the handle. Search for Stone In Shoe Bob's no-snag mods, or check out no-snag handles available through Revolution and their dealers- I got mine through A Wind Of Change wink.png

I'd link you to the topics, but it's a pain through the smartphone :/ sorry

 

 

OK, I remember reading about that, and I think that is where it is catching on the triangular piece of metal that the leader ties onto. 


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#17 Tmadz

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:36 PM

 
Tried that, not enough wind today to launch more than a couple of feet. 


Two things CapnBob. First, you are making all of the mistakes us newbies make. Can't imagine they put you in a cockpit with little training so no worries about the leaders. I am still getting confused especially with everyone's good intentioned help. Second, just fly. You will eventually find your own customs settings. Sometimes trying to do too much research and too many adjustments too soon can be detrimental.

#18 Reef Runner

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:00 PM

Two things CapnBob. First, you are making all of the mistakes us newbies make. Can't imagine they put you in a cockpit with little training so no worries about the leaders. I am still getting confused especially with everyone's good intentioned help. Second, just fly. You will eventually find your own customs settings. Sometimes trying to do too much research and too many adjustments too soon can be detrimental.

 

AND confusing, not only to yourself, but to those trying to understand your deli-ma !   Tmadz is right - JUST GO FLY !  It'll come.........

 

Remember the "Line Management" debacle ?  Well, winding and unwinding lines fixed that problem for you, and now, it's a piece of cake.

So, JUST GO FLY, and try not to worry about every little thing.  It will come with flight time, and only with flight time.  We are all pulling for you to make a go, but you've just got to GO FLY !  ani_victory.gif


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#19 REVflyer

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 05:11 AM

I'd like to see you practice BACKING the kite from inverted and forget all about this forward drive stuff.  Eventually you must master control an inch above the ground.  This is a lot easier with the weight on the bottom (leading edge inverted).

 

Here's the session outline.  

Start with the kite inverted, sitting on the ground and back-up (fly in reverse by pushing your thumbs at the kite) to waist or shoulder height.  STOP and hover.  Then lower it gently back to mother earth.  Repeat this five times with the objective of a smoother flight speed in both directions and straight lines.  You may find that smaller handle movements combined with moving your feet helps tremendously, particularly in low wind. 

 

Okay next, double the objective height and try it all over again. You may find you need to shorten your brake (bottom) lines by pulling in the bottom leaders, or letting out the tops.  Eventually you want to be able to do this flight path to the very top of the wind window, like it was riding on railroad tracks, following a laser beam!  This will take many hundreds of hours to perfect and make effortless looking.

 

When you get bored go fly as you usually would, but keep coming back to the inverted session.  If your revolution kite will not back-up you might as well can cut off two strings because you are not using the kite as it is can be ("demonstrated the quad-line effect?" is the name for this asked question in judge-speech)

 

What you are doing by adding all of this down is a benefit to low wind flight too,... here's why.  You are pulling the sail more square to the wind's maximum pressure.  If you held a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood in a wind tunnel, which path of the wind would place maximum pressure on your plywood?  If you angled the wood in any direction some of the wind pressure would spill off, right?  

 

When in doubt about tuning ALWAYS add down first and see if that is an improvement.

 

You'll eventually have to break the habits of all forward drive tuning, if you ever want to gain mastery on a revolution kite.  We all learned to scream to the top of the window with forward drive first.  Don't waste the next seven years to change like I did!

 

My current setting for leader lengths is the tops are 300 to 400% longer than the bottoms.  I make all my tuning adjustments using the bottom leaders (so the tops are always the same length, muscle memory for 3-D tricks).  Handle length dictates the top leader length.  I want it "just short" of reaching the bottom leader attachment point.  Longer handles get longer leaders.  Choices are personal,... do what feels right to you, the path doesn't matter only the destination!



#20 Captainbob

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 06:06 AM

 

I'd like to see you practice BACKING the kite from inverted and forget all about this forward drive stuff.  Eventually you must master control an inch above the ground.  This is a lot easier with the weight on the bottom (leading edge inverted).

 

Here's the session outline.  

Start with the kite inverted, sitting on the ground and back-up (fly in reverse by pushing your thumbs at the kite) to waist or shoulder height.  STOP and hover.  Then lower it gently back to mother earth.  Repeat this five times with the objective of a smoother flight speed in both directions and straight lines.  You may find that smaller handle movements combined with moving your feet helps tremendously, particularly in low wind. 

 

Okay next, double the objective height and try it all over again. You may find you need to shorten your brake (bottom) lines by pulling in the bottom leaders, or letting out the tops.  Eventually you want to be able to do this flight path to the very top of the wind window, like it was riding on railroad tracks, following a laser beam!  This will take many hundreds of hours to perfect and make effortless looking.

 

When you get bored go fly as you usually would, but keep coming back to the inverted session.  If your revolution kite will not back-up you might as well can cut off two strings because you are not using the kite as it is can be ("demonstrated the quad-line effect?" is the name for this asked question in judge-speech)

 

What you are doing by adding all of this down is a benefit to low wind flight too,... here's why.  You are pulling the sail more square to the wind's maximum pressure.  If you held a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood in a wind tunnel, which path of the wind would place maximum pressure on your plywood?  If you angled the wood in any direction some of the wind pressure would spill off, right?  

 

When in doubt about tuning ALWAYS add down first and see if that is an improvement.

 

You'll eventually have to break the habits of all forward drive tuning, if you ever want to gain mastery on a revolution kite.  We all learned to scream to the top of the window with forward drive first.  Don't waste the next seven years to change like I did!

 

My current setting for leader lengths is the tops are 300 to 400% longer than the bottoms.  I make all my tuning adjustments using the bottom leaders (so the tops are always the same length, muscle memory for 3-D tricks).  Handle length dictates the top leader length.  I want it "just short" of reaching the bottom leader attachment point.  Longer handles get longer leaders.  Choices are personal,... do what feels right to you, the path doesn't matter only the destination!

 

 

Will start working on this today.  Thanks....


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