17 replies to this topic

[David M]

Hi
Guys,

I saw this topic before but now I can't find the thread.What is the advantages
and disadvantages if any of using 15" handles and how do you measure them

[SparkieRob]

Handle length refers to the actual length of rod used not the distance between the tips after bending.

15"s are generally used for light wind kites. The extra 2" over standard handles accentuates the input, small hand action gives the tip a bigger arc of travel as it is farther out from the pivot.
Easier way, little handles require bigger inputs, bigger handles require smaller inputs.

Clear as mud? :-)

Rob.


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[TerryB]

Hi,
I made some 15 inch handles from some second hand units on eBay I found these make me steady my input a little and they are great for long lines on a light wind day
Have also some 11 inch units from a speed series, these I have experimented with a little.
This is a great game to experiment in, I used to be afraid of changing anything but now ... Hey the wind is always different!
Sometimes you get lost in all the changes, so now I only change one thing and Test Test Test
Take Care
Terry

[David M]

Handle length refers to the actual length of rod used not the distance between the tips after bending.

15"s are generally used for light wind kites. The extra 2" over standard handles accentuates the input, small hand action gives the tip a bigger arc of travel as it is farther out from the pivot.
Easier way, little handles require bigger inputs, bigger handles require smaller inputs.

Clear as mud? :-)

Rob.


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Thanks Rob,Ive got a B Pro 1.5 Bazzer eyes masterpiece would the 15's be OK with this kite

[SparkieRob]

Thanks Rob,Ive got a B Pro 1.5 Bazzer eyes masterpiece would the 15's be OK with this kite

Give it a go in a lighter wind, assuming that it's not a vented Eyes, and see how you like it. Use your 13's to give you a direct comparison.

It all comes down to how you like it and what feels comfortable to you. I'll give most things a try before I decide. Keep us posted how you go. Oh, you may have to play with you leaders...

"One mans mods are another mans madness"




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[stroke survivor]

I've used both 13" and 15" handles for a while now, and find I use the 15" in light winds with either my SLE SUL or "B" full sail!! Shouldn't be any problem with the "Eyes" in low winds!! Some don't use them at all, I do! Personal preference here!! You do what works for you!!

[makatakam]

If you are just beginning to fly quad-line kites, then shorter handles will make it easier to learn because they dramatically decrease the amount of input you can give. Most beginners put too much movement into their control efforts (over-control), which causes loss of control. Smaller inputs equal better rersults.

[David M]

Thanks Mark,I've been flying for nearly 2 years now and want a bit more of a challange right now.

Cheers

David M

[flyatx]

Wanted to see the actual difference between what I learned on to where the modification of where i i am today...

Big Difference. Handles are more neutral, more brake, less input for response. Thanks to a Rev clinic, I would have flown with way too much drive and no brake. I guess the factory setting is to allow beginners to launch and forward drive the machine/sail. Once adapted to less drive more brake, inverted hoovers, precision clockwork, and controlled slow flight in all aspects becomes more manageable (not easier). Practice Practice Practice. 

Edited by flyatx, 20 February 2013 - 10:54 PM.

[Watty]

Rev Handle Position .jpgWanted to see the actual difference between what I learned on to where the modification of where i i am today...

Big Difference. Handles are more neutral, more brake, less input for response. Thanks to a Rev clinic, I would have flown with way too much drive and no brake. I guess the factory setting is to allow beginners to launch and forward drive the machine/sail. Once adapted to less drive more brake, inverted hoovers, precision clockwork, and controlled slow flight in all aspects becomes more manageable (not easier). Practice Practice Practice. 

 

Absolutely. Stock settings really make the kite want to fly forward all the time. When flying a kite with stock settings for any length of time now, my hands get really tired a lot quicker because I'm constantly pulling down on those break lines to keep the kite docile. SO much more comfortable with more break.

[REVflyer]

brake

[quaa714]

brake

And lots of it!!!!!!!!!

[kwmf]

I actually can't fly on stock B leaders unless I untie all but the last 2 knots

[Felix Mottram]

Absolutely. Stock settings really make the kite want to fly forward all the time. When flying a kite with stock settings for any length of time now, my hands get really tired a lot quicker because I'm constantly pulling down on those break lines to keep the kite docile. SO much more comfortable with more break.

 

More brake is 'where it is at' once the flier has mastered the basic control inputs.

 

Gripping the handles at launch if there is lots of break set is the 'deal breaker' for getting beginners started.

 

Holding the handles 'horizontally' rather than 'vertically' is another variation on this theme <grins>

 

Felix

[Cody G]

I just came across this image which nicely demonstrates the differences between a shorter handle and a longer handle.

 

Taken from: http://tauday.com/im...e-arclength.png

 

Consider 'r' as the handle length and 's' the resulting arc, or movement produced as a result of a given handle movement. As you can see in this image, with the same amount of movement (or angle you change the position of 'r', your handle), with a short handle, or short 'r1', the movement produced is the small arc 's1'. But, with the longer handle, or 'r2', you end up with a longer arc 's2'.

 

Since the kite experiences the inputs from the ends of the handle, it is experiencing the resulting 's' of a handle movement. Longer handles results in a greater input to the kite from a given movement of the handle. It essentially exaggerates any motion you make. Conversely, shorter handles result in less input to the kite.

[SkyPuppet]

Thanks for the diagram and the explanation Cody G. <br /><br />I have something to add to this. The diagram is completely correct, so long as the handles pivot at their very top. Most Rev pilots that I've flown with have their hands positioned below the top of the handle, index fingers at the top of the foam grip. When the handles pivot when gripped like this, there is movement on the top lines as well. So while there would be less arc on the bottom lines, from the pivot point, the arc also created on the top lines would still give a possible desired result.<br /><br />The diagram is still correct. But there is different action on the lines when you take into account the pivot point. It all works.

[Cody G]

The longer handles that I have seen tend to have the grip positioned the same distance from the top of the handle as do shorter handles, with the extra length being added to the bottom portion of the handle. This effectively extends only the 'r' component, since you are not moving your hand, or the "pivot" point, toward the bottom of the handle. The length of 'r' is, of course, different based on where you place your hands; however, considering that most rev flying is done by moving your hands in three different planes of motion, not solely by pivoting your hands in one plane of motion, this really only serves to display difference between longer vs shorter handles. In reality, it's just far too much math to do when there is flying to be had!

[--Pete]

It is actually the difference between the top end and the bottom end which controls the relative lengths of the lines. Thus holding a bit lower just means the bottom moves a little less while the top moves enough in the opposite direction to make up for the amount the bottom doesn't move. Do the math and you will see that the difference (total motion) will be the same for a given angle no matter where you hold the handles. This is for a given handle length; as CodyG's image demonstrates, longer handles equate to more motion-per-angle-change.

The one change when adjusting where you hold the handles (and it is very small) is that with a top-hold you are having all the motion occur at the bottom end and means that you are slightly loading the bottom of the sail as you change angle in the braking direction, whereas if you hold the handles near the middle, you will be doing less loading of the bottom of the sail and slightly unloading the top of the sail. This is such a small amount (inches) compared to moving your arms (many inches) or taking a step forward or backward (a foot or more) that it can be ignored. If you want to load or unload the sail you won't be doing that by rotating the handles.

 

Changing where you hold the handles just changes which muscles you are using to hold (in a steady position) or to rotate the handles. Holding the handles so there is no tendency for the line tension while in a hover to rotate the handles (you just pull the handles toward you). Holding higher (thumb on the top end) means you have to exert effort to pull the bottom more than the top (while in a hover). The muscles that control your ring and pinky fingers, and the muscles that rotate your whole hand toward the pinky will be under constant tension. Some like this, because it means you don't have to make the transition from no muscle tension to muscle tension. I suspect that it makes your reaction time a tiny bit quicker, and may also provide better feedback about what the kite is doing. I also suspect that the muscles that rotate your hand down are a bit stronger than the ones that rotate it upwards. I know that a mid-hold will soon result in sore muscles along the top of my forearms. The most comfortable hand position (for me) is with the thumb being a nearly straight extension of the forearm and the fingers angled slightly down.