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Bridle or Bridleless on ultra short lines?


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#1 lasapcheong

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:07 PM

Hi,

On very short line, flying on a 1.5 sized Rev (B-Series, BPro), are the pros and cons of flying with and without a bridle?

Wind would be street/urban style and highly fluctuating, probably anywhere from 0 mph – 5 mph. Lines would be short like probably 10 – 15 feet or so under confined places and it would definitely be a standard sail with probably zen rods or something in the same weight class.

I've seen a couple of videos of this type of flying where different fliers both fly with and without a bridle. What are the pros and cons of both? Obviously I'm not shooting for killer precision under these conditions, basically a good balance of handling in terms of lift and turns.

Thanks in advance
Darryl

#2 Kitelife

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:05 PM

RevFlyer (Paul) will undoubtedly disagree, but in my experience - I've always found that removing the bridle does two primary things:

It allows you put the kite into deeper angles (floats, glides, etc), and it spreads out the control points, which makes the kite feel less responsive to me.

In some ways it is more responsive due to the ability to angle from an edge of the kite instead of from a bridle point in front of the sail... Your in-flight adjustments are more pronounced, but because it's working from the edge of the kite, I think it's easier to lose your sail pressure.

But I don't feel the same snap and sail loading that I get with a bridle on.

==

Please experiment Daryl, then post back here and tell us what you experience?

It is a pretty easy mod of course, win-win, it can't hurt your kite. ;)

John Barresi

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#3 REVflyer

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 04:43 AM

removing the bridle allows the kite the ability to get perfectly flat, (Burka or Watty style), so catches can be done perfectly flat too (parallel w/the ground) The kite is more twitchy since there are only four corners holding everything (energy from inputs or the wind is not spread out across the frame, = "diluted forces")

without a bridle the kite is more responsive twitchy, so you can fly upwind or practice up & overs, with flailing action. Nothing is diluted and dumping the air pressure entirely is just a flick away.

I'm used to a bridle, so I use one on everything, even my indoor kites. I want everything to fly as a matched set, like a set of custom-made golf clubs. Changing your weapon should not change your swing! You could hit a strong 8-iron or a weak 6, . . . . but you also could carry a seven iron which should be about perfect! Having everything all fly the same means one less variable to deal with, so you can concentrate more on the fun part.

A great bridle makes the kite fly in a more neutral manner. Nothing happens too quickly or over-reacts when commands are sent by flailers or new pilots. Less risk of damage as energies are spread-out across more surface area. Light weight tubes can bend or collapse without a bridle, stored energy can surge forward when curved tubes are relaxed suddenly also.

I agree with John,... try it out (with and without) and see what you think. But expect it to be different and you'll need enough time (experience) to judge that aspect of flight fairly. Ten minutes is not a fair comparison! Most folks I know go to longer handles to maximize the twitchiness of no-bridle flying. Nobody jumps part-way off of a bridge, . . . . go for the distance & depth records!

#4 kwmf

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 06:07 AM

It allows you put the kite into deeper angles (floats, glides, etc), and it spreads out the control points, which makes the kite feel less responsive to me.

In some ways it is more responsive due to the ability to angle from an edge of the kite instead of from a bridle point in front of the sail... Your in-flight adjustments are more pronounced, but because it's working from the edge of the kite, I think it's easier to lose your sail pressure.

But I don't feel the same snap and sail loading that I get with a bridle on.


Less responsive AND more responsive ..... hmmmmm :P

Reading both the responses here lead me to a curious question . It seems that you both agree that you can achieve greater angle (call it responsive, twitchy or whatever) due to spreading the control points, and as such get more dramatic (pronounced) results for a given input that with a bridle on. Assuming one developed the skill to maintain the sail pressure and not over-input the controls ... what would the difference be?

Seems to me that, aside from spreading the stress load via a bridle, that it comes down to a choice of direct/raw access to the control points versus having a bridle damp out the inputs. I don't have enough indoor time to try one of my B's out with and without a bridle to see, but it almost seems that it comes down to your prefered style and if you want to modulate the inputs yourself or via a bridle.

Like I said, not enough time to test it for myself, just seemed like an interesting question (at least to me).


Steven

#5 Kitelife

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 06:46 PM

Not enough time to test it yourself? Hooey! :)

It takes literally 2-3 minutes to remove a bridle, most of that is untying the center attachment.

Add pigtails to the top and bottom end caps, a minute or so.

Try it when you can, tell us what YOU think. ;)

John Barresi

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#6 kwmf

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 03:07 AM

Some of us have to work a regular day job mate :P

The actual change I can do ... the time required on each setup developing a feel for it is another story - especially when I don't think I have the skill and knowledge to know exactly what I'm looking at/for ;)

With limited flight time I prefer to hear what others have experienced and found so that I can optimise my time and have a clue what I'm looking for or trying to replicate. Make no mistake, I will get around to it at some point and I never take anyones word for things ... but I do like to have a clue during my experiments. You guys are really lucky to be able to interact, share info and play on each others setups ... for those of us who have to go the solo hard way, we like to try save ourselves what we can where we can. If you prefer, you can ship yourself, Steve de Rooy or Spence over here to accelerate my learning and free up more time for experimentation ;)

#7 Clin

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 03:16 AM

I have a old 1.5 set up permanently as bridle-less, for one reason: As practice for flying an Indoor in outdoor conditions. :lol: (read further)

I'm using a set of 15inch handles with it, simply because it's lying around unused. So my 15ft lines are permanently attached to the handles which I used exclusively for outdoor short line flying. I'd use the same lines/handles for a 1.5 with bridle too.

I'd say its a cross between a 1.5 with bridle and a Indoor. You get the directness in terms of feel, more twitchy but have to remember the "rules" of flying an Indoor, i.e, hands close together or the sail loses pressure etc. You can also pull it out of the air easily. For me, it's a good tool to keep myself familiar with how a Indoor would feel in certain aspects, smiliar but not exact. I can't comment on the wind range performance but I guess bridleless would probably edge it? Any wind, you'd be better off with a bridled 1.5.

When I think of bridleless 1.5, Lam Hoac springs to mind.:sign_kitelife:

#8 REVflyer

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 08:18 AM

You don't have to remove the bridle, just add some pig-tail attachment points (use 100# high-test bridle string) as a separate line on the down-spar endcaps (4 pig-tails, two long and 2 short). You can add these elements watching the late news on the TV before bed. You can tune these new attachment points such that they wind-up the correct length for your handles of choice. Then you can switch back and forth (comparing no bridle to using a bridle) easily, without having to change anything else.

#9 stroke survivor

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 08:32 AM

You don't have to remove the bridle, just add some pig-tail attachment points (use 100# high-test bridle string) as a separate line on the down-spar endcaps (4 pig-tails, two long and 2 short). You can add these elements watching the late news on the TV before bed. You can tune these new attachment points such that they wind-up the correct length for your handles of choice. Then you can switch back and forth (comparing no bridle to using a bridle) easily, without having to change anything else.


If you do add these, I recommend making them like handle leaders!! If you have several knots, you can adjust to taste!! Posted Image

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