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#1 REVflyer

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 02:25 AM

So, I heard thru the grapevine that one of the judges deducted points, . . . if the fliers weren't "stationary" during the entire figures. Is that the correct approach? A personal policy decision?

Since I'm flying inside a hemisphere with the wind window superimposed upon it, doesn't the perspective change depending on my current position? Let's say there's a dead calm or slight swirly hint of a directional breeze to work with, (it's fly or die, no wind rules will be in effect for the entire weekend) To hold a hover or back-up inverted I must add my own energy. My hover is still stationary from my own perspective, right? I can't remain stationary on the kite handles without moving my feet and adjusting the handles ever so slightly during the darn thing.

If the wind shifts 20 degrees right of center, wouldn't my inverted side slide be allowed to use more field in that direction as well?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole point of precision.

If I picked a centerline and inverted flight on it to the top of the window, I might need to walk backwards. Does the perspective of the flyer represent that center line? Does it hurt my score if I must add my own energy and walk backwards or even diagonally backwards to hold that center line and rate of ascent? Say I'm drawing a big circle with the leading edge. At Dory Park in Richmond I'd need 60 feet walking backwards not two steps!

Should I have been flying an indoor REV instead of a full sailed SUL 1.5?

I also started my technical routine in a rolled-up position and ended with a catch (You can't change who you really are, regardless of the circumstances!)

I'm pretty new to this whole aspect of kite flying, so laugh all you want, but I'm requesting input or clarification.

#2 quaa714

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:27 AM

Fly for fun.......not for fame!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats what keeps me smiling!!!!!!!!!!

"Cya in the Sand!....."

"Slack lines are fine lines!"


"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" BD
"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain" BM
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#3 REVflyer

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:30 AM

oh you know me Rich, . . . ... I enjoyed myself enough to try it again! I came in second and Carl Berg was clearly superior to my efforts. I just didn't think it mattered if I used everything available to me, including my feet!

#4 monkey

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 05:21 AM

Um no, I'd call that an incorrect judgement myself, and I've judged more than a few of these over the years. You are correct for the reasons you put forth. I was -always- told to ignore the flyer and concentrate on the kite itself during the figure.

I'm sure John will pipe in on this as well
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#5 Kitelife

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 09:37 AM

Here's the point of contention...

The precision of a compulsory is determined by a stationary viewpoint (frame of reference).

In an ideal world, both pilot and judges are stationary (depth-wise)...

If the flier moves, say, 50 ft to the left halfway through a compulsory, then the center of the window changes and the judge's perspective is no longer accurate.

Same if either (not both) moves forward or back a lot, again, the frame of reference gets skewed.

I don't have an answer, although I'm familiar with the philosophy you described.

John Barresi

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#6 Watty

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 09:46 AM

I would say that if the flyer moves, the judges ought to move with them. It's the judge's responsibility to make sure they have a good view, not the flier's.

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#7 REVflyer

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 10:37 AM

if the flier moved, then a deduction in score shall be accounted for.
That is a statement I'd have a problem with particularly in zero wind conditions!

If the figure was ugly or incomplete
(but I was standing on one foot in a dead calm)
would you add bonus points to my score?


I don't care either way,
I'd always thought we were to ignore the flyer and focus only on the kite

#8 Kitelife

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 12:07 PM

if the flier moved, then a deduction in score shall be accounted for.
That is a statement I'd have a problem with particularly in zero wind conditions!

If the figure was ugly or incomplete
(but I was standing on one foot in a dead calm)
would you add bonus points to my score?


I don't care either way,
I'd always thought we were to ignore the flyer and focus only on the kite

Well, that's the key isn't it...

If you watch only the kite from a fixed position and the flier walks back 75' during an octagon, the shape and proportion is going to look like crap.

Solutions?

1. Judges maintain their distance/angle to the flier by walking or running with them... I know a lot of judges who can't or won't do this.

2. As a flier, use your ground and angle to try and preserve the judges perspective as much as possible.

3... ?

John Barresi

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(found in a fortune cookie - possibly an Einstein quote)

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#9 JasonOsteo

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 12:38 PM

3. Go to the pub and buy the judge a pint. Posted Image
People are like Slinkys. Basically useless but fun to watch falling down stairs.

#10 Simon

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 02:08 PM

Hi, OK - I was a judge. for over a decade, up to World Cup level. Things have changed, so...

1. Take a copy of any judge or rule book to every event. If a Judges say you can't do something ask them to show you where it says that.




you could email them some of the links to videos from competitions, Steff Ferme - , Richard Debray , Chris Goff

Precision Steff




Here's the point of contention...

The precision of a compulsory is determined by a stationary viewpoint (frame of reference).

In an ideal world, both pilot and judges are stationary (depth-wise)...

If the flier moves, say, 50 ft to the left halfway through a compulsory, then the center of the window changes and the judge's perspective is no longer accurate.

Same if either (not both) moves forward or back a lot, again, the frame of reference gets skewed.

I don't have an answer, although I'm familiar with the philosophy you described.




JB 2nd Post


Well, that's the key isn't it...

If you watch only the kite from a fixed position and the flier walks back 75' during an octagon, the shape and proportion is going to look like crap.

Solutions?

1. Judges maintain their distance/angle to the flier by walking or running with them... I know a lot of judges who can't or won't do this.

2. As a flier, use your ground and angle to try and preserve the judges perspective as much as possible.

3... ?



The Flying Squad

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#11 John F

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 06:48 PM

I have had a problem with this. Wind window is defined by the kite and line pivoting around the pilot 180 to left and right and straight up and is a rectangle. Figures are defined by that. The pilot should be able to define the window before flying the figure and the better the figure is flown in that window the higher the score with the judges never looking at the pilot. This is much more important on dual line and figures like steps down. The other problem is the figure is defined in a planar format and flown on the perimeter of a quarter sphere.

It has bothered me that many judges have different views on this and no one seems ready to do the definitions.

Guess that goes with a small sport in a subsection that is unpopular.

John

#12 REVflyer

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 02:25 AM

you're right about that! There aren't enough of us around anymore to complain about anyone, we only had three judges on the panels but at least it was better than single.

Nest time (if I remember!) I'll ask the "question" during the pilot's meeting, then listen to what comes back as a response.

I usually define the window by how far around the parameter I can fly (all the while flying inverted) before I start the figure. I figure if it's powered-up in that orientation, then I should be good to go. I'm looking for landmarks or clouds, some reference points to help position the figure correctly.

The whole precision thing is very new to me. I'm still examining the figures on the day of the event, I don't get practice (that is rapidly approaching "work" and I'm only doing this for the fun factor!)

Thanks for all your input folks,
-plm

#13 John F

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 06:01 AM

you're right about that! There aren't enough of us around anymore to complain about anyone, we only had three judges on the panels but at least it was better than single.

Nest time (if I remember!) I'll ask the "question" during the pilot's meeting, then listen to what comes back as a response.

I usually define the window by how far around the parameter I can fly (all the while flying inverted) before I start the figure. I figure if it's powered-up in that orientation, then I should be good to go. I'm looking for landmarks or clouds, some reference points to help position the figure correctly.

The whole precision thing is very new to me. I'm still examining the figures on the day of the event, I don't get practice (that is rapidly approaching "work" and I'm only doing this for the fun factor!)

Thanks for all your input folks,
-plm


I consider practicing precision on a REV fun. The REV is a precision machine. So acquiring precision skills on a REV is fun and the way to do it is by doing the compulsories. Why else would you learn to fly in a cirlcle backwards or really try to hold your spot in the sky during clockwork, or slide horizontal thru a lollipop. Hey the other stuff is fun but dead nuts on is fun too like in darts or horseshoes.

#14 REVflyer

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 06:14 AM

I'm more about throwing the kite directly at a stroller, having the kids' parents scream bloody murder and then yank it out of the sky for a catch moments later. I crave that crowd interaction. Just like a predator, I separate the young or the weak from the herd and then attack 'em. Practicing figures is only about 2% as much fun as chasing the little tykes around in circles, at least in my case. We each have our favorite activities.

#15 Kitelife

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:09 AM

ROFL Paul! :kid_smartass:

John Barresi

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#16 REVflyer

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:15 AM

I forgot to mention, after chasing the kids they come over for a lesson. Now this is a satisfaction phase I can appreciate! I know, you've seen this picture before,.... it should be titled "focus"

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#17 Simon

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 01:52 PM

I have had a problem with this. Wind window is defined by the kite and line pivoting around the pilot 180 to left and right and straight up and is a rectangle. Figures are defined by that. The pilot should be able to define the window before flying the figure and the better the figure is flown in that window the higher the score with the judges never looking at the pilot. This is much more important on dual line and figures like steps down. The other problem is the figure is defined in a planar format and flown on the perimeter of a quarter sphere.

It has bothered me that many judges have different views on this and no one seems ready to do the definitions.

Guess that goes with a small sport in a subsection that is unpopular.

John


Hi ,


As for the the Wind Window it's not as simple as that. For a start a Quad flys in reverse, only some fly as far backwards as they do forwards so what is you left & right edge - Forward or reverse ? It's not a rectangle, you mention pivot on the lines therefore its a continuous arch from far left ground level to far right ground level So almost a 1/4 sphere.. Within this wind window you fly an interpretation of a 2d figure in a 3D area. Your perspective will be different from each judges and the crowd (video camera) The judges score based on a rule book, precision is easy / Ballet is hard.




"flying doesn't make you a better Judge, but Judging makes you a better flyer"

Quote Simon.


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#18 Kitelife

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 02:05 PM

"flying doesn't make you a better Judge, but Judging makes you a better flyer"

Quote Simon.

Hoorah, amen.

John Barresi

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"We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails."
(found in a fortune cookie - possibly an Einstein quote)

My full list of kite articles - kitelife.com/author/john-barresi
 

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#19 REVflyer

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 02:41 AM

HA!, I started flying precision so I wouldn't have to judge it so often.

#20 quaa714

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 02:53 AM

I'm more about throwing the kite directly at a stroller, having the kids' parents scream bloody murder and then yank it out of the sky for a catch moments later. I crave that crowd interaction. Just like a predator, I separate the young or the weak from the herd and then attack 'em. Practicing figures is only about 2% as much fun as chasing the little tykes around in circles, at least in my case. We each have our favorite activities.


BINGO>EXACTLY>DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Cya in the Sand!....."

"Slack lines are fine lines!"


"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" BD
"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain" BM
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