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Zen, 1.5 SUL, and Indoor Rev...thoughts???


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#1 badinfluence

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:58 PM

Can anyone put some thoughts on a comparison of the Zen, 1.5 super ultra light, and the indoor rev. Went out the other day on some very poor winds and broke out the b series with race rods and 75' lines. Couldnt get it to fly very well. Broke out the zen on the same lines. Flew it a bit but seemed like still too much line. Changet to 30' lines and flew the zen for about 15 mins and was burned out on trying to keep it up in the air. Now i am wondering if i would have been better off with a 1.5 sul or even an indoor flown outdoors. Getting another rev is never a bad thing but i want to be prepared for the good days and the bad days. Not just sitting on the sidelines. Should I be more concerned with technique than another kite choice? I do the gain ground loose ground technique but the dual liners were simply eating me up in the light winds.....thanks for any advice...

#2 Joe B

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 08:21 PM

Since you've already got the Zen, I would venture to say that technique should be your focus at this point. Outdoors, you've already got the best possible low/no wind Rev! I've been able to get by with just a B-Series Standard on days many guys won't even both trying and most of the guys I fly with are dual liners who own dedicated low and zero wind kites.... Practice makes perfect! ;)

After years of debating I finally ordered a Zen for myself and can't wait to feel the difference.

Me flying a B-Series standard in 0-2 mph... a few seconds in after the dual liners

#3 SkyPuppet

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 08:22 PM

I wouldn't try and compare yourself to the dual liners. Especially if you mean tricking ability in light/no wind.
Most of the tricks I perform with a dualie require a stall of some sort. While in a stall, the kite is using the wind very efficiently, and stays aloft easier with less need for footwork that loads up the sail (usually your footwork initiates stalls). The Rev does most of its cool stuff with a loaded sail, which (usually) means you will need to keep on the move when flying in low/no winds. You might also need to load up the sail with your arms more, using quick pulling motions that bring your handles into your chest. You won't see the dual liners do this too often.

Technique in low/no wind is the most important factor, but you might want to check your setup as well. Sounds like you already have the right Revs!

Make sure you are flying with lots of brake dialed into the handle leaders. This will allow the sail to cup the wind better. When the winds are low, it is very important to get the sail to "cup" as much of the wind as possible. Lots of brake will also give you more of a float, to allow you to gain more ground.
If you are an experienced dualie pilot, this might seem odd.... It did to me at first. With my dualie, in light wind settings I would move the tow-points forward on the bridle, which would force the kite to sheet the wind more. The Rev is completely opposite! Again, the Rev must "cup" and not "sheet" the wind for best performance, high or low winds.

Check your lines. The negative effects of flying on uneven lines seem compounded when flying in low/no wind conditions.

Hope this helps ;)

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#4 SkyPuppet

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 08:40 PM

Me flying a B-Series standard in 0-2 mph... a few seconds in after the dual liners


Nice catch and throws JoeB!! :)

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#5 kwmf

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:33 PM

Having been through this, I would say the biggest 'problem' area, with wind quality also being a potential suspect since I don't know what it's like where you fly.

In smooth good quality wind I'm able to fly in much lower wind that I usually think I can - right down to barely there. Granted, it IS more work, but it's certainly not frantic running around ... just not standing still.

In terms of what I have used in low wind it would be the Indoor, Zen, B and B2.
The Zen makes low wind work easier, but it's no black magic anti-gravity machine ... regardless of how much Bazzer dust is sprinkled on it. The B2 can actually go down into surprisingly low wind even with it's small size with the B having a slight advantage over it due to the larger sail area.

I have put the Indoor Rev up outdoors and a really don't like it. Being designed for indoor use, the leading edge is not made to handle grass/dirt, there is no bridle to spread the load of any wind/gust that comes along, it loads up VERY easily (which makes flying in wind suck) and the material will stretch at a much faster rate since the material used in the sail was chosen for weight and not ability to resist wind stretch.

Ideally, I'd personally love to see the Indoor and B series get a motel room and produce a Street Rev - a machine with some of the no-wind characteristics of the Indoor, the toughness of the B and some of it's own badass nature in the form of factory setup reinforcements and protection from tar/concrete. That is one illegitimate love child I'd like to adopt ;)

#6 REVflyer

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 03:54 AM

Technique is everything in low wind, sorry but you can't buy practice hours on a visa card. You have to use your own energy and the mass of the kite together, to make your own apparent wind.

Indoor is too twitchy outside and the stock 1.5 is too heavy to fly easily in no wind, so the factory created the Zen. Personally I like a hybrid called the B-series Pro 1.5 SUL, but Bazzer and Ben don't want that option promoted as it's a royal pain in the tail feathers.

Id like to see the factory offer the kite that Dave Ashworth is holding,... kind of an indoor styled blast, or something similar.

His kite has magic sticks and a longish bridle so it flies normally, not like the indoor. This one is kinda' too big for my own flailing style and made of orcon (not durable enough for commercial applications). But the flight dynamics and design is sound enough that most folks can fly it standing on one foot after a few minutes of getting to know it! Imagine a 9ish foot tall kite framed in 125 carbon tubes with a P-90 leading edge PLUS All that surface area! Did you notice the line that connects the two wing halves? That prevents over-control and makes it much smoother. Since the frame is so light in weight the bridle leads to be acres long, otherwise input commands collapse/distort

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#7 jburka

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 06:21 AM

Ideally, I'd personally love to see the Indoor and B series get a motel room and produce a Street Rev - a machine with some of the no-wind characteristics of the Indoor, the toughness of the B and some of it's own badass nature in the form of factory setup reinforcements and protection from tar/concrete.


My standard street flying rig is an sul icky 2 with a 1.5oz ripstop nylon leading edge, race frame, and no bridle. Damage to the sail is minimal -- I'm about to replace my current sail, but it's about 8 years old and has many hundreds of hours on it.

Given that you have a B2 -- icky with a better-reinforced leading edge than I use, I suggest trying it without the bridle and on really long handles (15 to 17 inch). With a 2 or race frame, it's light enough for fast-paced indoor and great for street flying.

Going back to the original poster, I'll just pile on with everyone else and say that you have what you need for light wind flying -- except experience. So now it's all about practicing! Have fun with it!

#8 badinfluence

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 06:45 AM

I wouldn't try and compare yourself to the dual liners. Especially if you mean tricking ability in light/no wind.
Most of the tricks I perform with a dualie require a stall of some sort. While in a stall, the kite is using the wind very efficiently, and stays aloft easier with less need for footwork that loads up the sail (usually your footwork initiates stalls). The Rev does most of its cool stuff with a loaded sail, which (usually) means you will need to keep on the move when flying in low/no winds. You might also need to load up the sail with your arms more, using quick pulling motions that bring your handles into your chest. You won't see the dual liners do this too often.

Technique in low/no wind is the most important factor, but you might want to check your setup as well. Sounds like you already have the right Revs!

Make sure you are flying with lots of brake dialed into the handle leaders. This will allow the sail to cup the wind better. When the winds are low, it is very important to get the sail to "cup" as much of the wind as possible. Lots of brake will also give you more of a float, to allow you to gain more ground.
If you are an experienced dualie pilot, this might seem odd.... It did to me at first. With my dualie, in light wind settings I would move the tow-points forward on the bridle, which would force the kite to sheet the wind more. The Rev is completely opposite! Again, the Rev must "cup" and not "sheet" the wind for best performance, high or low winds.

Check your lines. The negative effects of flying on uneven lines seem compounded when flying in low/no wind conditions.

Hope this helps Posted Image


never tried to give it more brake lines. I allways thought that you basically wanted no brakes on light wind days,,, why would you need them was my theory,,,,ill give it a try!! thanks

#9 badinfluence

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 06:47 AM

Having been through this, I would say the biggest 'problem' area, with wind quality also being a potential suspect since I don't know what it's like where you fly.

In smooth good quality wind I'm able to fly in much lower wind that I usually think I can - right down to barely there. Granted, it IS more work, but it's certainly not frantic running around ... just not standing still.

In terms of what I have used in low wind it would be the Indoor, Zen, B and B2.
The Zen makes low wind work easier, but it's no black magic anti-gravity machine ... regardless of how much Bazzer dust is sprinkled on it. The B2 can actually go down into surprisingly low wind even with it's small size with the B having a slight advantage over it due to the larger sail area.

I have put the Indoor Rev up outdoors and a really don't like it. Being designed for indoor use, the leading edge is not made to handle grass/dirt, there is no bridle to spread the load of any wind/gust that comes along, it loads up VERY easily (which makes flying in wind suck) and the material will stretch at a much faster rate since the material used in the sail was chosen for weight and not ability to resist wind stretch.

Ideally, I'd personally love to see the Indoor and B series get a motel room and produce a Street Rev - a machine with some of the no-wind characteristics of the Indoor, the toughness of the B and some of it's own badass nature in the form of factory setup reinforcements and protection from tar/concrete. That is one illegitimate love child I'd like to adopt Posted Image


just what i was looking to hear, indoor rev outdoors, as light as it sounds,,simply does not work......

#10 badinfluence

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 06:51 AM

Technique is everything in low wind, sorry but you can't buy practice hours on a visa card. You have to use your own energy and the mass of the kite together, to make your own apparent wind.

Indoor is too twitchy outside and the stock 1.5 is too heavy to fly easily in no wind, so the factory created the Zen. Personally I like a hybrid called the B-series Pro 1.5 SUL, but Bazzer and Ben don't want that option promoted as it's a royal pain in the tail feathers.

Id like to see the factory offer the kite that Dave Ashworth is holding,... kind of an indoor styled blast, or something similar.

His kite has magic sticks and a longish bridle so it flies normally, not like the indoor. This one is kinda' too big for my own flailing style and made of orcon (not durable enough for commercial applications). But the flight dynamics and design is sound enough that most folks can fly it standing on one foot after a few minutes of getting to know it! Imagine a 9ish foot tall kite framed in 125 carbon tubes with a P-90 leading edge PLUS All that surface area! Did you notice the line that connects the two wing halves? That prevents over-control and makes it much smoother. Since the frame is so light in weight the bridle leads to be acres long, otherwise input commands collapse/distort


again, soundls like indoor rev outdoors, just does not work and 1.5sul would not be a better choice over the zen. as many times as i have heard this....light wind flying is never easy!! some people make it look effortless but most of them have been flying for years. I guess the same goes with flying rev 1's indoors back before there was no indoor rev......practice,,practice.. I also love the visa card comment!!thanks for te reality check before i overfill the quiver!!

#11 Felix Mottram

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 07:57 AM

<snip>using quick pulling motions that bring your handles into your chest. <snip>
Hope this helps ;)


Much better to learn how to pull much further past your thighs. Letting your chest get in the way is missing out 1/2 of the potential distance pulled.

Of course, the handles will be held horizontally to avoid any forward/brake inflection.

<grins>

Felix

#12 Kitelife

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 09:10 AM

never tried to give it more brake lines. I allways thought that you basically wanted no brakes on light wind days,,, why would you need them was my theory,,,,ill give it a try!! thanks

Aye, this is VERY worth looking at... Not sure if you've seen the "sail loading" tutorial at Kitelife, but this and "tuning theory" are both critical skill sets for you at this point, imho.

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#13 badinfluence

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 09:35 AM

Aye, this is VERY worth looking at... Not sure if you've seen the "sail loading" tutorial at Kitelife, but this and "tuning theory" are both critical skill sets for you at this point, imho.


john, thanks for the refresh on the " tuning theory" video. I dont know where my head has gone with this but i kept thinking, bottom of handles meant brake adjustment setting. That video offers so much importaint material and basic reasoning of poor wind conditions and how your flight setup can help. I am greatful you chimed in and told me to go back and look at that. Your tutorial videos are priceless....Any advice on line lenghts in very low wind conditions??

#14 Kitelife

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 09:41 AM

That's the funny thing with learning about Rev flying and theory... I find it myself, every aspect needs to be revisited, in cycles.

Each skill is so inter-related, sometimes an amount of natural growth is required before we even understand, or own (2nd level) a skill area.

21 years I've been flying Revs (as of this August), and I'm still connecting skills in new ways every day, it keeps it most awesome and interesting. :)

Thanks for the video props, I'm glad they've been useful! Of course, they're just my perspective, and ultimately (unavoidably) incomplete.

Keep taking it all in, from everywhere, try it all, give it HELL (passion/effort), and #1 - it's FUN, don't lose that for any reason. :)

John Barresi

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(found in a fortune cookie - possibly an Einstein quote)

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#15 Kitelife

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 09:44 AM

Ah, line length in low wind, missed that question before.

From what I can gather of your current experience on the Zen, I'd say 75'-85' might be a good place to play.

That's not long enough to present a lot of line drag, but IS long enough to provide some amount of wind window in which to work.

=

Short lines (30'-50') create even more line tension, but require a little more skill due to the limited space (turning, gaining ground, etc).

Long lines are brilliant once you get some feel for sail loading and line tension, you can glide (gain ground) a long way on 120' lines, even in 0-1 mph.

You might also experiment with 50# lines if you haven't already... They're a tad more spongy, but the feeling of direct line tension and minimal line drag is cool too.

John Barresi

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