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How to improve the B std's low end?


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#1 Beaufort

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 12:31 AM

I think the B series std. low end is terrific, but while I wait for a Zen to arrive, what could I try of simple (easy reversible) tuning/mods to improve the low end?

My shortest flying line is 80', so here I gues making a 50 or 65' set would make a difference?

Would a bridle mod make sense (heard of tying extra knots in somewhere)? Or attaching lines directly to the frame do?

Or is it simply to much trouble compared to what is gained.... I still want to use the kite as a standard, as I am not reserving it for SUL flying.


Thanks! :kid_smartass:

#2 Madquad

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:06 AM

I've made a light wind video too which you can check
Wind was about 4 Mph.



Used B-Pro with RaceRods on 100 ft lines.


Notice that the right equipment is half of the light wind way of flying...the other half is practice and practice !!!
I've got a Polo-rev too since a couple of days...this will be my ultimate lightwind kite i guess......we were flying this in a stable 2/3 Mph wind in pair and it turned out like a miracle , so smooth and still the feeling of that pressure you need.

It's not the size of your Rev.. its how you use it.
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#3 John F

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:14 AM

I think the B series std. low end is terrific, but while I wait for a Zen to arrive, what could I try of simple (easy reversible) tuning/mods to improve the low end?

My shortest flying line is 80', so here I gues making a 50 or 65' set would make a difference?

Would a bridle mod make sense (heard of tying extra knots in somewhere)? Or attaching lines directly to the frame do?

Or is it simply to much trouble compared to what is gained.... I still want to use the kite as a standard, as I am not reserving it for SUL flying.


Thanks! Posted Image


Equipment wise. 50# lines and either race or 2 wrap. Anything else is technique. Same will apply to the ZEN. I always fly my Zen with 50# lines. It is not the weight of the line but the thickness and associated air resistance.

#4 Watty

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 09:38 AM

Yes, John is right on. There is no substitute for skill.

I would not suggest adjusting the bridal. It's not worth it if you are going to fly it in normal winds as well. If you were going to fly it exclusively indoors, then I would remove the bridal, but other than that I would not suggest it.

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#5 Polo

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 10:35 AM

... I've got a Polo-rev too since a couple of days...this will be my ultimate lightwind kite i guess......we were flying this in a stable 2/3 Mph wind in pair and it turned out like a miracle , so smooth and still the feeling of that pressure you need.

The sail without sewing of "Los Hermanos Gonzalez" meets a big success. Indeed, you are not the only one to have noticed the behavior so particular and so pleasant of the Revopolo 1.5 printed.

Thank you Marc ;)

#6 Beaufort

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 10:52 AM

I've made a light wind video too which you can check
Wind was about 4 Mph.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=v6C4BmtD2UY

Used B-Pro with RaceRods on 100 ft lines.


Notice that the right equipment is half of the light wind way of flying...the other half is practice and practice !!!
I've got a Polo-rev too since a couple of days...this will be my ultimate lightwind kite i guess......we were flying this in a stable 2/3 Mph wind in pair and it turned out like a miracle , so smooth and still the feeling of that pressure you need.


Thanks, very nice flying!

Does the Pro offer a lower low end than the std. B?... Or are you just making it look like it ;-)

#7 Beaufort

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 10:54 AM

Equipment wise. 50# lines and either race or 2 wrap. Anything else is technique. Same will apply to the ZEN. I always fly my Zen with 50# lines. It is not the weight of the line but the thickness and associated air resistance.


Thanks, I have got the rods covered then, just needs some shorter lines and working on the technique :kid_smartass:

#8 Beaufort

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 10:55 AM

Yes, John is right on. There is no substitute for skill.

I would not suggest adjusting the bridal. It's not worth it if you are going to fly it in normal winds as well. If you were going to fly it exclusively indoors, then I would remove the bridal, but other than that I would not suggest it.


Thanks, I suspected it was not worth the trouble, but nice to know!

#9 ahofer

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 01:20 PM

I've got a Polo-rev too since a couple of days...this will be my ultimate lightwind kite i guess......we were flying this in a stable 2/3 Mph wind in pair and it turned out like a miracle , so smooth and still the feeling of that pressure you need.


This weekend I've had a chance to use my Polo-Rev in very light wind, and I really like it. It has the weight of a kite with no sewing but flies and fills nearly as smoothly as a B. A bit more...light on its wings than the Zen. 50' 50# lines and Race Rods.
When I was young, my bologna had a first name. Now my bodywash has an "Objective".

#10 SkyPuppet

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:23 PM

Speaking of SUL gear, I bought 15" handles for my B Series the other day.

I noticed the metal "triangle eyelets" that the leaders attach to were not as easy to rotate as the ones on my 13" handles. I sprayed a little WD40 through it, but they still feel gritty.

Should I return them to the kite store?

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#11 RevWizard

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:04 PM

Speaking of SUL gear, I bought 15" handles for my B Series the other day.

I noticed the metal "triangle eyelets" that the leaders attach to were not as easy to rotate as the ones on my 13" handles. I sprayed a little WD40 through it, but they still feel gritty.

Should I return them to the kite store?

I wouldn't bother.
If you want it looser, pry it apart ever so slightly. It is important that it is not too loose, it could come out at the wrong time.

The triangle is actually a silver colored version "hog clip" that is used in the upholstery industry.

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#12 Watty

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 09:01 PM

Speaking of SUL gear, I bought 15" handles for my B Series the other day.

I noticed the metal "triangle eyelets" that the leaders attach to were not as easy to rotate as the ones on my 13" handles. I sprayed a little WD40 through it, but they still feel gritty.

Should I return them to the kite store?


Personally, I can't stand the hog clips. There is a simple mod that I do to all of my handles that is explained in this video:
This is commonly referred to as the Stone in Shoe Bob method ;)

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#13 SkyPuppet

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 09:36 PM

Hog clips eh? Lol thanks for the info!

I'm going to mod the handles tomorrow! The video made it a no-brainer - thanks Watty, and thanks to Stone in Shoe Bob.

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#14 stroke survivor

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:29 AM

I've used this method myself, it works beautifully!! Posted Image 4 sets and counting!!!Posted Image

wayne from portland
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#15 SkyPuppet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:04 PM

I have handle envy! Posted Image Need to add a custom 13" set sometime in the future. Then mod them too.

I've made a light wind video too which you can check
Wind was about 4 Mph.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=v6C4BmtD2UY


^^^^^^^
Excellent video Madquad! Posted Image

Have Rev, Will Travel

 

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#16 Kitelife

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 05:24 PM

It's not the wind... My 2 cents, focus on improved technique.

A B-Series with Race rods will fly in pretty much anything, if you're applying the right dynamics.

Amongst the iQuad crew, we don't use anything lighter... And our Zen kites, only if the wind is absolute rock bottom.

Have you seen the light wind tutorial I did?

http://kitelife.com/...ng-hd-1280x720/

Also, I recommend looking at the Sail Loading technique as well...

http://kitelife.com/...ng-hd-1280x720/

They're accessible to Kitelife subscribers ( http://www.kitelife.com/subscribe.php ) only, but if you're interested, they are there. :)

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#17 stroke survivor

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 05:24 PM

I have handle envy! Posted Image Need to add a custom 13" set sometime in the future. Then mod them too.



^^^^^^^
Excellent video Madquad! Posted Image


If you're going to mod the handles yourself, you won't need to get "custom" handles, any regular set will do!!Posted Image If you get custom handles, they will be all taken care of and be ready to fly!!Posted Image

wayne from portland
You have 2 choices - live on or die!! I ain't the dying type!!!  Also known as "portland flyer" on some forums!

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#18 SkyPuppet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 07:24 PM

One of the things I've always appreciated about sport kiting is how it seems that technique can always be improved... And that practice always pays off, providing you're practicing the right things. It keeps me out there hour after hour, day after day, cliche after cliche lol. That being said, thanks for the video links!!

If you're going to mod the handles yourself, you won't need to get "custom" handles, any regular set will do!!Posted Image If you get custom handles, they will be all taken care of and be ready to fly!!Posted Image


Oh lol I meant the slightly upgraded handles, not so much the customs. I get caught up in semantics like that Posted Image
I seen handles with money and snakeskin on them - only like $6 more than buying a standard 13" replacement set of handles! They have flame ones as well, along with skulls and.... red eye skulls lol.
I seen them up close, they still use the infamous hog clip.
Maybe I'll go hunting for some true custom handles? Got any recommends?

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#19 stroke survivor

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 07:49 PM

One of the things I've always appreciated about sport kiting is how it seems that technique can always be improved... And that practice always pays off, providing you're practicing the right things. It keeps me out there hour after hour, day after day, cliche after cliche lol. That being said, thanks for the video links!!



Oh lol I meant the slightly upgraded handles, not so much the customs. I get caught up in semantics like that Posted Image
I seen handles with money and snakeskin on them - only like $6 more than buying a standard 13" replacement set of handles! They have flame ones as well, along with skulls and.... red eye skulls lol.
I seen them up close, they still use the infamous hog clip.
Maybe I'll go hunting for some true custom handles? Got any recommends?


Theresa at The Kite shoppe, Kent from AWOC, or Lolly from Rev, all handle (pun there) custom no snag handles!! Posted Image

wayne from portland
You have 2 choices - live on or die!! I ain't the dying type!!!  Also known as "portland flyer" on some forums!

7346824786_f12fcda7bd_s.jpg7770032034_ebc85fc33e_s.jpg7776002900_89d33b664b_s.jpgLogoupdate.png

 

 

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#20 REVflyer

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 02:34 AM

you could use a shorter stick in the down spar, also a tapered tube since it's about lowering the wind range of a stock sail.

In really tough conditions I have set of cut-down Response 12 Skyshark tubes or a set of P2 spines (also skyshark) These are old tubes, easily discontinued a decade ago. It's a 12 gram, tapered, smooth like paint stick, that is cut down to end at the bottom of the sail material. The elastics are shortened as necessary, but remember not to push that tube UP above the leading edge when doing this adjustment. Since the tube is thinner diameter I need to build-up the end of it, that inserts into the end cap (otherwise it can wiggle!) A vinyl end-cap is used or my lazier method is several wraps of electrical tape. The objective of this exercise is to move the weight forward when in an inverted glide. Since you have removed weight and also moved it forward you can recover your field easier.

A set of magic sticks will also stiffen the frame, it sounds counterproductive to add this weight, but your glide will be further improved, so to me it's worth it.

I use a Zen or Race leading edge tubes from Rev, as well as a set of cut-down p90s from Skyshark in my low wind kites.

None of these changes need to be permanent, you have only cut-down some extra parts laying around the house and adjusted one end on each of two elastic cords.

To test these adjustments is very easy. Fly you kite to the top of the window, with a stake placed next to your foot. Invert the kite and release the handles entirely, with them centered before you. Measure off how far away the kite went and place a marker in the ground. Now undue the elastic, replace the downspars and try it again. My bet is that field recovery glide is WAY further OUT there if you did the testing consistently, at least that what my experiments have produced. If the kite will glide away from you 300% further than the release height, then you know you can get back to your starting spot without having to run 360s. Heck it will recover that field length if you just let go! Imagine how you can control and adjust the glide with the handles in your paws. You only back-up now to add energy, saw your way to some elevation and turn it leading edge down.

Longer handles increase the action you can put on the kite, but every action has an equal negative aspect to deal with,.... longer handles hurt in big wind. Shorter looks smoother because you use both of them more often together

Shorter lines will teach you technique that can be applied to longer ones. I enjoy flying early in the morning (usually dead calm) with the sunrise or in no-wind conditions.

The best flying low wind kite I own is an old B-Series SUL with a Zen center tube and race outers, the P-2 spines are used as down-spars. Lots of miles, sail is not crisp anymore, even some ugly wear spots on the leading edge, been thru at least 3 bridles. This is a delicate device for when you know conditions are not likely to change.
Easily more delicate the the Zen. I use a French Bridle and 16 inch magic sticks made from point 125 carbon tubes. I have a variety of handle lengths, but on this rig I'd use 13 no-snags with 120 feet of 50# line (LaserPro Gold or the new Skybond Yellow stuff from Shanti, . . . . both of which are most excellent!)

If conditions are likely to change, then I go to a B-Series Pro with cut-down Skyshark Black Diamond 3P-tapers (or Response 12s if you can find them) as the down spars (cut to end at the length of the sail) and the Race leading edge (sometimes with a 3 wrap center for more weight forward to use with 3-D techniques. This rig will fly in a dead calm and survive double digit gusts! Still on the French bridle and magic sticks, long handles as needed

You don't need any of this crap, if you have the proper techniques. If you have both though, then you are all set and smiling when everyone else around is in mourning or not even awake yet.

Spend some time on you lines, insure the handles align perfectly before affixing your kite. Inspect your area for dangerous footing conditions. You will be adding energy with physical motion, just like indoors, make sure you don't fall unexpectedly or twist an ankle.

Get out there and give it some practice, you'll come up with your own secrets too. What happens if ????,..... Try it out & see for yourself! The only good modification is the one you tested out directly and liked the results personally. Revs are easy to experiment on and can always be returned back to stock, just save your bits and pieces! A good experiment can have the results replicated by others, make sure you testing is neutral without any expectations of success. Test long enough to know you like the differences. I took eight months to confirm I liked the french bridle better than the modified one I had used for over a decade. Feeling different is natural, is it BETTER? Only you can answer that question and it will take some time to answer it fairly.

You can get this comparison clinic with us at Wildwood, if enough folks are interested. Nothing formal folks, we'll just set-up the 4 different Old Glory kites in a side-by-side comparison for anyone interested in alternative bridles or magic sticks. I'm pretty sure Brad and Rich would loan their kites to add with mine, but we'd need to know in advance so we have everything with us! No cost, just some help to set everything up and take it back down again.




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