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Rev. 1 or the Zen?


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#1 Beaufort

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 02:48 AM


I have and enjoy both a B-series std. and full vented.
So this is not excatly my first Rev, but I hope I am in
the right forum anyway ;-)

The two B-series are wonderfull, but now there is the
"itch" to get a new one, and I am attracted to a larger
model, because I like the slower more gracefull
movements a larger sail gives.

Better low wind characteristics is a nice bonus too.

Should I go for Rev 1, save quite a few dollars compared
to a Zen, and settle for a more boring sail layout and
give up a little on the very low end?

Or should I go for a Zen, empty my pockets!, and live with a
kite that is excellent in low wind, but probably inferior to the
Rev 1 in anything above 5 mph?

Or have I got it all wrong?


Pls. help me out and chime in if you have any experience in
these matters and desires ;-)

Thanks!



#2 REVflyer

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 07:32 AM

The zen suits your stated purpose but not your pocket-book, . . . we can all understand that!

Is it worth the money? That is purely personal question which can only be answered by you after trying it out under a few different conditions. I like mine, but it doesn't do anything I can't accomplish just as well with a highly modified 1.5

Are you willing to experiment with modifications (towards increasing the low-wind worthiness of your 1.5s) or are there any other Rev pilots in your area who might be able to assist you?

#3 awindofchange

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:13 AM

It really depends on the wind conditions you are flying in. The Zen is a SUL type of kite that has some very unique flying characteristics. If you are looking for a ultra low wind kite that is much more graceful than the 1.5, the ZEN is the ticket. If you want something that is more graceful in flight in normal flying winds that you normally fly your 1.5's in, the Rev 1 is the ticket. The Rev 1 doesn't have the light wind ability of the Zen, but the Zen is really not designed for winds over say.... 5-6 mph.

Hope that helps.

#4 stroke survivor

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 08:38 PM

I agree with Kent on the comparison, the Rev1 flies in the same wind ranges your 1.5s do! Just a different style! If you want to expand your wind range capability, get the Zen!!Posted Image

wayne from portland
You have 2 choices - live on or die!! I ain't the dying type!!!  Also known as "portland flyer" on some forums!

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#5 Baloo

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 10:05 PM

Just love my Zen on 120 lines, in low wind, just chill out. It jus seems to slide aroud the window with such little effort. Fantastic in the low winds where it takes much more effort to fly the others.

Like to fly my Sedgwicks (Rev 1's) on 50 ft lines, needs a bit more wind, still glide around though. he advantage of the Rev 1 is, as others have said. You can fly them in higher winds.

So the only real answer, sell some body parts and get both. :kid_devlish:

A beter answer, see if you can get to try them. I know it is much easier for some to do this than others. However then you can do a direct comparison and be able to see if the Zen is worth a Kidney.

#6 fungus

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:13 PM

so
last sunday the forcast said low wind but it felt 3-5 mph, set up 1.5 sul on 100ft x 50lb line,it didn't want to fly, tried 60ft x 50lb still no luck, put the ZEN on and it saved the day, later the wind picked up as i flew and the ZEN become a bit of a handful , later still the 1.5 flew.
the wind was actually variable between 1 - 5 mph
BUT Karl Robertshaw flew his REV 1 succesfully ( i guess its a non standard REV 1 and he's a much better flier than me )

i'm pleased to have the ZEN, its a different 'feel' and you need to learn to fly it but i wouldn't be without itPosted Image

the good news is that later today i pick up a REV B PRO SUL , so i have more light wind choice

fungus
wHind cHecks Har4 wHimps

#7 btbt

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:19 PM

My fav rev to fly is a Sedgwick 1 with a 2 wrap frame.....excellent light wind capabilities and a gorgeous sight in the sky. However if I could afford a Zen, it would be my fav I'm sure...as I as well like the slow gracefulness of the larger sail and I like low wind flying.
I have 2 wrap, the regular 4 wrap, and race rods in my rev 1's. I even had an sle in a 1.....quite interesting actually....
So this scenario would still cost about the same...??... a Zen or a 1 with 2 frames....say a 2 and the regular 4 wraps...
Whatever, you'll be getting them all anyways...lol..
bt

#8 stroke survivor

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 08:08 AM

My fav rev to fly is a Sedgwick 1 with a 2 wrap frame.....excellent light wind capabilities and a gorgeous sight in the sky. However if I could afford a Zen, it would be my fav I'm sure...as I as well like the slow gracefulness of the larger sail and I like low wind flying.
I have 2 wrap, the regular 4 wrap, and race rods in my rev 1's. I even had an sle in a 1.....quite interesting actually....
So this scenario would still cost about the same...??... a Zen or a 1 with 2 frames....say a 2 and the regular 4 wraps...
Whatever, you'll be getting them all anyways...lol..
bt


Do you feel that the 2 wrap Rev1 frame gives you any more than the race frame?? Posted Image I've got a race set for mine, along with the 4 wrap, definitely improves the light wind range, but does the 2 wrap give you even lower??Posted Image Has anyone weighed the different frames to see if there's a real weight advantage?? In really light winds, I'm using my 1.5 SUL!!!

wayne from portland
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#9 Beaufort

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 10:51 AM

Thank you friends! - Lots of helpful answers and food for thoughts...

Rev flyers are pretty rare in Denmark, so there probably is no big chance to try either of them.

The rational side of me says the Rev 1 makes most sense (graceful flying, good low end, good wind range and reasonable price), but then has Rev flying anything to do with rationales?

Sooo difficult. public/style_emoticons/default/confused_1.gif

#10 stroke survivor

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 11:04 AM

The nice thing - you won't be unhappy with either choice!!!Posted Image

wayne from portland
You have 2 choices - live on or die!! I ain't the dying type!!!  Also known as "portland flyer" on some forums!

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#11 btbt

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 02:49 PM

Do you feel that the 2 wrap Rev1 frame gives you any more than the race frame?? Posted Image I've got a race set for mine, along with the 4 wrap, definitely improves the light wind range, but does the 2 wrap give you even lower??Posted Image Has anyone weighed the different frames to see if there's a real weight advantage?? In really light winds, I'm using my 1.5 SUL!!!


Yes I do, but I think it`s more of a "personal feel" thing rather than a weight thing. I have a very light touch and am a huge fan of 2 wrap frames in most models/sizes....
I`ve compared a 2 wrap and a race frame in both a Sedgwick 1 and a `90`s 3 panel rev 1... I liked the 2 wrap better in the Sedgwick and the race better in the older 1...this also has a bunch to do with panel layout and sail material I would think. I have a cool Sedg w/2wraps, a 3 panel 1 w/ race and 4 wraps, and a self vented hot Sedg w/4 wraps.
There`s something about the extra "bounce" of a 2 wrap that I can use to an advantage in low winds especially with a larger sail and again a light touch. I can`t stress enough the lighter touch otherwise it will bounce too much. If I feel like muscling the kite a little more I`ll put a race frame in.
I as well love the 1.5 sul`s, but when the wind really dies I put the Revs away and out come the 0wind Deca`s........until of course I save up enough loot for a Zen......would love to check that out in zilch wind....
bt

#12 John F

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 03:29 PM

Yes I do, but I think it`s more of a "personal feel" thing rather than a weight thing. I have a very light touch and am a huge fan of 2 wrap frames in most models/sizes....
I`ve compared a 2 wrap and a race frame in both a Sedgwick 1 and a `90`s 3 panel rev 1... I liked the 2 wrap better in the Sedgwick and the race better in the older 1...this also has a bunch to do with panel layout and sail material I would think. I have a cool Sedg w/2wraps, a 3 panel 1 w/ race and 4 wraps, and a self vented hot Sedg w/4 wraps.
There`s something about the extra "bounce" of a 2 wrap that I can use to an advantage in low winds especially with a larger sail and again a light touch. I can`t stress enough the lighter touch otherwise it will bounce too much. If I feel like muscling the kite a little more I`ll put a race frame in.
I as well love the 1.5 sul`s, but when the wind really dies I put the Revs away and out come the 0wind Deca`s........until of course I save up enough loot for a Zen......would love to check that out in zilch wind....
bt



I got a Zen last summer. Since then it has been my most used kite. Also the most photographed. Got some wild colors in it. I flew it for a demo last week on 30 foot lines at the festival with low shifty winds. It worked using my ultrasensitive neck hair as a guide I was able to stay down wind (wift) easily. We typically have very low winds and the Zen keeps me flying. Also flying with 2 wrap center on LE and Race all the way around the rest.

#13 stroke survivor

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 08:04 PM

Thanks for your post, bt!! I also have a older Rev1, it's the same panel layout as the purple, grey, and black in the banner! Got the race frame for it and love it, but I only use it in light winds! That big a wing puts so much tension on the rods, especially in gusty or stronger winds!! I've been very pleased so far at the strength and flex of that frame!! And I get the light touch thing, found myself over controlling my 1 after so much flying on the 1.5!! Just too sensitive for the same inputs I use for the 1.5!! Posted Image

PS: You can see my Rev1 on the global count thread, p.79 post #1570!!

wayne from portland
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#14 kwmf

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 12:21 AM

I've never flown a Rev 1 to compare with, but my Zen (full race frame) isn't much fun for me when the wind picks up (or gusts) to a level that will fly a 1.5 on (flat footed). For me I find that due to the size it loads up so much that appying enough brake input to make turns requires some muscle to it. Its not that it can't be done, it's just that I don't like the experience. The result is that when it gusts the sail loads hard and it tends to want to lock into a straight line in whatever direction it's pointing and resists all but the firmest efforts to turn.

This is just my personal experience and I am nowhere near a skilled pilot and have nobody around who can show me a better way ... so if others are able to work fine with it then I just haven't learnt the skill yet.

#15 awindofchange

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 02:41 PM

The Zen - although near the same size as the Rev 1 - does have a different panel layout and will load up much more in less winds than the Rev 1. They really are two totally different animals. The Rev 1 in normal flying winds (winds that you would fly the 1.5 in) is much easier to fly and quite the different feel than the Zen. I would say the Rev 1 is more like the 1.5 in control and feel but slower and much more graceful. Pull is about the same with the Rev 1 having just a little bit more (obviously because it does have a much bigger sail). Also, the rotations on the Rev 1 are smoother but you do need to add a little more aggressive snap-back to counter steer it, due to the added mass of the kite. When done properly the kite snaps back very nicely and sharp.

The Rev 1 is different enough from the 1.5 that it does warrant having one to fly. They are both very fun in their own unique way. The Zen is also different enough from the other two that it doesn't overlap with the others. The Zen is also fun in it's own unique way that is different than the 1.5 and the Rev 1.

Now...if that isn't as clear as mud I will try to explain it more. Some things you just gotta try first hand to understand. :)

#16 Clin

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 06:40 PM

Had a short time on my Zen. Still framed in the std Zen rods. There are various forms out there with full Race frame or combi LE with 2wrap center/3wrap outers to get a different response.

The initial impression is like what has been described, good low wind capabilities but it requires a strong snap back to counter the "oversteer" effect due to it's inertia in turns. The 1 is similar in that aspect but to a greater degree. So a more deliberate snap back action is required compare to the 1.5.

The Zen feels like a mix between the 1.5 and the 1. I used to have a Rev 1 Sedgwick with 2wrap for low winds and 4 wraps for std wind. The Zen feels much better in the lows in that there is more sail load in the middle, giving it a more even load across the whole sail. Thus, there's a little more less of that feeling where each wing is fighting for control, like on the 1. There is also less tendency for the Zen to slip down at the edge of the window.

I used to fly my 1 with 15inch handles, primarily to get a larger leverage on the brake to get that big truck steering in the desired direction and to counter the turning inertia. That would be something I'd be trying with the Zen. Other options would be the LE frame switch.

However, a 1.5 with 50# and shorter lines would probably cover most low wind conditions;);). The Zen is an indulgence :w00t:.

Regards,
Chua

#17 kitecowboy

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 08:02 PM

Easy, BOTH!
Cowboy, rocks in your pockets couldn't hurt.

#18 Beaufort

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 10:43 PM

I've never flown a Rev 1 to compare with, but my Zen (full race frame) isn't much fun for me when the wind picks up (or gusts) to a level that will fly a 1.5 on (flat footed). For me I find that due to the size it loads up so much that appying enough brake input to make turns requires some muscle to it. Its not that it can't be done, it's just that I don't like the experience. The result is that when it gusts the sail loads hard and it tends to want to lock into a straight line in whatever direction it's pointing and resists all but the firmest efforts to turn.

This is just my personal experience and I am nowhere near a skilled pilot and have nobody around who can show me a better way ... so if others are able to work fine with it then I just haven't learnt the skill yet.


Thanks, very relevant information!

#19 Beaufort

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 11:12 PM

Thanks, Kent very clear!

But with my limited experience, I need just a little bit more explanation from you ;-)

The Zen - although near the same size as the Rev 1 - does have a different panel layout and will load up much more in less winds than the Rev 1. They really are two totally different animals. The Rev 1 in normal flying winds (winds that you would fly the 1.5 in) is much easier to fly and quite the different feel than the Zen. I would say the Rev 1 is more like the 1.5 in control and feel but slower and much more graceful. Pull is about the same


the same as the 1.5? or the Zen?

with the Rev 1 having just a little bit more (obviously because it does have a much bigger sail). Also, the rotations on the Rev 1 are smoother but you do need to add a little more aggressive snap-back to counter steer it, due to the added mass of the kite. When done properly the kite snaps back very nicely and sharp.

The Rev 1 is different enough from the 1.5 that it does warrant having one to fly. They are both very fun in their own unique way. The Zen is also different enough from the other two that it doesn't overlap with the others. The Zen is also fun in it's own unique way that is different than the 1.5 and the Rev 1.

Now...if that isn't as clear as mud I will try to explain it more. Some things you just gotta try first hand to understand. :)


So given that I am after the slow, graceful flying experience, the Rev 1 seems to fit the bill better, because of its wider comfortable wind range (3-12 mph I guess). True?

And if a dedicated low wind monster is the need, then the Zen is the way to go.

Can I ask you also which one you fly most?

And then I am thinking, if it makes sense to make a "B-series 1" along with the classic Rev1...

Thanks a lot !

#20 Beaufort

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 11:20 PM

Had a short time on my Zen. Still framed in the std Zen rods. There are various forms out there with full Race frame or combi LE with 2wrap center/3wrap outers to get a different response.

The initial impression is like what has been described, good low wind capabilities but it requires a strong snap back to counter the "oversteer" effect due to it's inertia in turns. The 1 is similar in that aspect but to a greater degree. So a more deliberate snap back action is required compare to the 1.5.

The Zen feels like a mix between the 1.5 and the 1. I used to have a Rev 1 Sedgwick with 2wrap for low winds and 4 wraps for std wind. The Zen feels much better in the lows in that there is more sail load in the middle, giving it a more even load across the whole sail. Thus, there's a little more less of that feeling where each wing is fighting for control, like on the 1. There is also less tendency for the Zen to slip down at the edge of the window.

I used to fly my 1 with 15inch handles, primarily to get a larger leverage on the brake to get that big truck steering in the desired direction and to counter the turning inertia. That would be something I'd be trying with the Zen. Other options would be the LE frame switch.

However, a 1.5 with 50# and shorter lines would probably cover most low wind conditions;);). The Zen is an indulgence :w00t:.

Regards,
Chua


Thanks Chua!

I am bit surprised you place the Zen between the 1.5 and the 1; I read the others desriptions as the Zen is more radical in its flying style....

Reg. short lines, how short do you need them to be in order to make low wind flying easier? I am normally flying on 80' and looking forward to try my new 120'. From dual line flying, I actually found it easier to fly my kites around 100' instead of 50'....

Thanks.




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