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Zen indoors??


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#1 badinfluence

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 06:52 AM

I recently did some indoor flying with an indoor rev and was thinking now about buying an indoor but, I have a Zen and did not try it indoors. Would the Zen work for me indoors? Would I have to remove the bridle from it? Why is there no bridle on the indoor revs? It is my understanding that years past before I was a flyer most would fly 1.5's indoors that they modified a bit to make lighter. That was all there was.This may have came up before but i cant seem to find it......thanks

#2 Watty

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 08:27 AM

I recently did some indoor flying with an indoor rev and was thinking now about buying an indoor but, I have a Zen and did not try it indoors. Would the Zen work for me indoors?


The Zen would work indoors if you know what you are doing. It was not designed for that, and I have not tried it yet, but the way I see it, you can fly anything indoors if you try hard enough.

Would I have to remove the bridle from it?



You would not have to remove the bridal. If you decide that using the Zen indoors is something you want to do regurlarly, than ok. It will shave a bit of weight off. But if you just want to try it, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Why is there no bridle on the indoor revs?

A bridal is really not necessary on an indoor rev. The main reason for a bridal is to distribute stress across the frame evenly. When flying indoors, you aren't dealing with high winds, and stress is not as much of an issue. So, adding a bridal would just be unnecessary weight.

It is my understanding that years past before I was a flyer most would fly 1.5's indoors that they modified a bit to make lighter. That was all there was.This may have came up before but i cant seem to find it......thanks

Before the rev indoor, people would use a Rev1, Rev2, or a Rev1.5. All of these are usable. However, like the zen, they are not designed to fly indoors. There are a number of indoor flyers that still use a rev 1.5 or a rev 2, in fact I use a rev 2 from time to time. The type of modification that might be done would be to use lighter weight fabric for the sail, and remove the bridal.

Hope this helps,


Spence "Watty" Watson

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#3 Kitelife

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 09:56 AM

I tried the Zen indoors and found it be too big, made handling too much work.

Removing the bridle would only "widen" the controls and make it less responsive.

The reason the Indoor Rev has no bridle, is to get the control lines right on the edges of the kite (deeper angles).

The regular Revs have a bridle to move the control points closer to the center, increasing sensitivity.

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#4 Jim Foster

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 03:52 PM

The regular Revs have a bridle to move the control points closer to the center, increasing sensitivity.


The bridle also provides some support to the center of the leading edge to keep it from folding in the center, which should not be needed indoors.
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#5 REVflyer

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 02:12 AM

The most sensitive REV is one without any bridle, the bridle "dilutes & spreads" the flier's control inputs over a greater area.

A short bridle (one that's built close to the frame) can collapse or severely distort the frame, (with a rapid or strong input) so if you choose to use something very light (for example point 125 carbon tubes) for your frame then you'll need a very long bridle to compensate for that modification.

The beauty of a properly fabricated bridle on an indoor kite is when there's no difference in the feel between your outdoor equipment and the indoor kites. They all feel like a matched set, sort of like a custom set of golf clubs crafted exactly for "your swing". The wedges feel just like your 3-iron! Switching kites is just as easy. You could command the wrong kite to work in these conditions, or you can go to the one most appropriate and play more easily. But they all feel the same! My biggest complaint is the difference between the flight dynamics of the indoor Rev and a properly prepared SUL 1point5. A lot of that difference can be traced back to the bridle or lack there of, as the case may be.

I've flown a Zen indoors too, just to see how it feels, . . .... there are more appropriate tools for that task though!

#6 Kitelife

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:43 AM

The most sensitive REV is one without any bridle, the bridle "dilutes & spreads" the flier's control inputs over a greater area.

I disagree with this completely, both by logic and flight... If you move the line attachments from bridle (in front of the kite) to the ends of the vertical spars (i.e. "indoor"), they are further apart and movements need to be adjusted appropriately... When I took the bridle off my regular B for street flying, I found bicycle rotations, clockwork, etc took a larger change in handle angle to make effective.

I've flown a Zen indoors too, just to see how it feels, . . .... there are more appropriate tools for that task though!

Agreed.

John Barresi

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#7 REVflyer

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 09:59 AM

ah, further agreement to disagree, (Hi john!) We must have different experiences with our kites

#8 Kitelife

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 11:24 AM

Fair enough, agree to disagree. :)

(hi Paul!)

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#9 Felix Mottram

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 11:34 AM

I disagree with this completely, both by logic and flight... If you move the line attachments from bridle (in front of the kite) to the ends of the vertical spars (i.e. "indoor"), they are further apart and movements need to be adjusted appropriately... When I took the bridle off my regular B for street flying, I found bicycle rotations, clockwork, etc took a larger change in handle angle to make effective.


I think that I would agree with your interpretation... the bridle would be seen as 'amplifying' the input from the handles. (Geometry has to be considered here!) I would guess, but I do not have any practical experience in this respect, that reducing the input from the handles would be beneficial for some in a low/no wind situation.<grins>

Felix

#10 Jim Foster

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 02:10 PM

I disagree with this completely, both by logic and flight... If you move the line attachments from bridle (in front of the kite) to the ends of the vertical spars (i.e. "indoor"), they are further apart and movements need to be adjusted appropriately... When I took the bridle off my regular B for street flying, I found bicycle rotations, clockwork, etc took a larger change in handle angle to make effective.


Agreed.


My geometry teacher (that was a long, long, time ago) would say that the closer the lines are attached to the ends of the vertical spars, the more input you will need at the handles, hence the long indoor handles to help make up for the added distance between the upper and lower lines with the absence of the bridle.

Think about this. If you were to attach the lines directly to the vertical spars six inches up and six inches down from the center of that spar, you would be able to tilt the kite completely flat forward and backward with 13" handles.

The lines, kite and handles form a trapezoid (trapezium for those of you across the pond), the lines being the two equal sides, the handles being the short side, and the kite being the long side. Increasing the length of the long side (removing the bridle), diminishes the effect that moving the short side has on the long side, and the reverse.
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#11 --Pete

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 06:06 PM

Thanks, Jim. I tried wording that about ten different ways, and finally wiped the whole thing out. I kept getting way off into definitions and stuff that didn't advance ANYONE'S understanding.
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#12 Jim Foster

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 06:31 PM

Thanks, Jim. I tried wording that about ten different ways, and finally wiped the whole thing out. I kept getting way off into definitions and stuff that didn't advance ANYONE'S understanding.


Geometry, and the result of geometric change can be simple, fun stuff, but sometimes not so easy to explain in an understandable way. I did some re-writing myself.
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#13 Steve808

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:47 PM

Aloha
One of our fliers from BASKL flew a Zen recently at our indoor competition.
It was filmed by and for the Martinez patch. Thank you Martinez Patch!
It is posted on line with a brief intro about kite flying and our 4 contestants.
The indoor fly was also an event to introduce the public to what indoor kite flying.
We had a great turn out.
John Quitugua of San Fransisco flew the Zen to 1st prize.


http://martinez.patc...n#video-4502855
Steve

#14 mdilucca

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 09:31 PM

I think that Fabrice Baldan's indoor flying using a rev II replica with the french bridle setup is the answer. I'd like to try it to verify this :kid_smartass:

Cheers
Mario

Cheers

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#15 Kitelife

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 10:39 PM

Aloha
One of our fliers from BASKL flew a Zen recently at our indoor competition.
It was filmed by and for the Martinez patch. Thank you Martinez Patch!
It is posted on line with a brief intro about kite flying and our 4 contestants.
The indoor fly was also an event to introduce the public to what indoor kite flying.
We had a great turn out.
John Quitugua of San Fransisco flew the Zen to 1st prize.


http://martinez.patc...n#video-4502855
Steve

Too cool, I let John Q fly my Zen at Brookings in July last year... 30' x 50# lines... He liked it, apparently. :)

John is a great flier, young and active too!

John Barresi

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#16 Steve808

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 04:21 PM

Too cool, I let John Q fly my Zen at Brookings in July last year... 30' x 50# lines... He liked it, apparently. :)

John is a great flier, young and active too!


Gives new meaning to "try it, you'll like it"
He sure likes his Zen and is a great asset to the Rev. family

After seeing John Q practice and warm up for the indoor contest most of the morning, I asked the judges before I flew if there is a handicap available for us not so young and nimble. Being close to 3 times his age...
It was both exhilarating and exhausting just watching him.

After taxes are done and anything left, I want to pick up a new Rev. I am torn between a Zen or one of the new Rev II's
I wonder how they would do in a stack together.....

Flying on short lines is a lot of fun.

Steve

#17 badinfluence

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:38 AM

Aloha
One of our fliers from BASKL flew a Zen recently at our indoor competition.
It was filmed by and for the Martinez patch. Thank you Martinez Patch!
It is posted on line with a brief intro about kite flying and our 4 contestants.
The indoor fly was also an event to introduce the public to what indoor kite flying.
We had a great turn out.
John Quitugua of San Fransisco flew the Zen to 1st prize.


http://martinez.patc...n#video-4502855
Steve



do you know if he had the bridle on or off the zen? seeing videos like that push me to keep learning and have hope!!

#18 REVflyer

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 10:04 AM

a properly developed bridle
~ spreads the stress over a greater area
~dilutes the input commands of the flier's handles

without a bridle the kite is more twitchy, but it can get flatter

you can test indoors or out ( i have on both the Rev2 and the indoor model)

you can even disagree!

#19 Steve808

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 09:04 PM

Aloha Wind Junkie

From what I remember, John Q's Zen was the factory set up with a bridle.
He did look like he was spending more energy keeping the kite afloat compared to other fliers I have seen using the standard indoor Rev.
The Zen is heavier.
He does fly the Zen well in low winds outside too.

Hope this helps some.

Steve




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