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Catch and throw


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#1 kwmf

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:41 AM

Hi there

We've had a LOT of rain over the past 2 or 3 months, so all the fields have been overgrown ... so I broke out my short lines again just to get SOME flying in and ended up practicing the catch and throw again. I am definitely much better at it now than when I first started to try it some time ago ... not 100% on it, but I can pull it off with a dregree of repeatability. I normally do this on 20-30' lines for practice as 50' is jus pushing my limits right now, although I think this won't be a problem for long.

My question is that as the wind goes up, so the kite is pushed downwind as it falls towards you. Right now all my pulls are made from very high in the window, and there are 2 solutions I can think of to deal with the wind ... I'm just wondering if their are others.

First solution is to get as high as possible in the window (even giving a final pump to launch it past it's natural limit) and aim to have the kite creep behind you enough to negate the forward creep caused by the wind.

The second solution would be to pull from lower in the window so that it launches towards you in an arc - as seen in the 3D tutorial.


Now I know you can move your feet and run to the kite, bit I want to try launch it at me as much as possible to avoid that so I can be as accurate as possible and pull this off in places where that may not be possible or advisable.

Any other tips or solutions other than what I have thought of?

#2 REVflyer

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 04:30 AM

practice on longer lines to better understand the location of your pulls,

work on jerking the line from further away (from the handles),
the longer your leaders are, . . .... the farther out you can reach, without cutting your pinkie finger on the raw spectra.

I have the leaders on top as a fixed length and make all the tuning adjustments on the brake/bottom leaders. The top leaders are as long as the gap between the two attachment points. So longer handles get a longer set of leaders.

Knots are your mortal enemies, also insure your down spars do not extend beyond the top of the leading edge. Lots of times folks will tighten the bottom elastics but don't touch the tops, that make the sticks protrude too high above the leading edge.

You can increase the distance the kite travels by increasing the mass on the leading edge (heavier tubes/more wraps). The weight increase will allow it to travel a greater distance with less effort or effect by the breeze.

Practice in no wind or out towards one of the edges (I'm left handed, so I throw towards the right side) where the wind strength is deminished

Become extremely comfortable with the kite being flown in just your "off hand" (for me that's my right)

Make your grab of the top leaders as the kite is traveling up (loaded sail), don't wait for it to reach the apex and then pull.

A smooth and long pulling action is preferable.

Keep practicing and pushing yourself to longer and longer lengths of flying line. I'm practicing on 80 feet now and can catch on 120's pretty reliably (if the wind isn't blowing too hard.)

The objective is to make it all look effortless, so when you are doing demonstrations use a shorter length than your practice lines, at least 20% shorter. You want the kite to return to your outstretched hand without any foot movement. The throw should travel all the way out until the lines fetch-up tight again w/o any movement on your part.

practice, practice, practice

Attached Thumbnails

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  • Zen-Toss.jpg

Edited by REVflyer, 04 February 2011 - 03:39 AM.


#3 REVflyer

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 04:32 AM

more thoughts on the issue

A longer throw is accomplished by taking several foot steps first (diagonally, towards one of the corners of the wind window) and pitching it off of your index finger (javelin-style). Use a long arm technique, pushing the release, not a martial arts styled snappy action. You've built up some momentum now, before even releasing the kite, . . . so naturally it will go farther! You're throwing at the corner so the wind lessens as you travel out (less turbulence or terminating effect), it goes straighter and ends up pasted (& inverted) on the end of the lines. Hold that position momentarily to emphasize your effort.

the set-up for the throw?
You'll balance the kite on your "off-hand" in the middle, by the leading edge, logo facing the ground
grasping both handles in one hand such that they aren't interlocked and all the leaders plus the bridle attachment points on the kite are hanging down and dangling freely
(LOOK real quickly!, insure they're all clear!)
Here's where sleeving and big leader knots can give you an interference snagging problem. Consider alternatives that lessen or eliminate these issues if it does tangle-up occasionally. I have had good success using 100# hi test bridle line doubled-up, but only putting the knots for tuning onto 1 of those 2 legs. Use a stopper knot in the attachment loop and no sleeving. Bridles are "figure of 8" tied knots, again out of the 100#. That's as free of snag points as I can live with, unless I run a spectra-only bridle (I'm pretty high wear so replacement is necessary too frequently)

35-50 feet is good practice length to start with, as you have more time to anticipate, react and set yourself up properly. The kite travels the straightest for the catch when initiating the action directly downwind. My best results take place at about 65 or 70% of the window's height, while the kite is powered-up and rising upright. That makes a nice smooth arc (instead of jerking it off of the table top and it descends straight down ~ which happens if you initiate the action too high or if the kite is in a stationary hover). Actually there's a place for both techniques.

Thin, lightweight line sets snag every blade of grass or twig on the field! They loop around themselves and leave you with a hour's tangle to undue. 90# is worth the weight of itself, it sheds a tangle and the braid is tighter. Your surroundings are better than mine if you can get away with 50#LPG.

#4 Kitelife

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 10:49 AM

We've got a killer tutorial for 3D / catch and throw flying here. ;)

http://kitelife.com/...ng-hd-1280x720/

John Barresi

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#5 kwmf

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 11:55 AM

You think I didn't download that the moment it was available ???
Posted Image

#6 Kitelife

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 12:49 PM

Just passing it on for posterity. :)

Any items that you think should have been included, that might make for a good follow up tutorial?

John Barresi

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#7 kwmf

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 01:41 PM

With regards to the catch and throw, I can only think of small detail that could be added Not sure that would be enough to justify a follow up tutorial unless you were doing a follow up tutorial that added on to multiple existing tutorials ... like an addendum.

It was actually your point about the kite creepin behind you that gave me the idea for using that to counter stronger wind when'd doing a catch that drops straight down. The one from lower down that arcs in to you would seem to be a better version since it flies flat into the wind and would suffer less due to less exposed surface area.

WRT the catch and throw points that I suppose could be added in...
- how stronger winds affect the process
- tips on getting the setup right
- possible good ways the hold the handles to keep things separated (a close up of Steve's hands was a big help to me)
- tricks (other than practice) to keeping the rev straight befor the pull - I find it curve to the side if you're not straight
- pulling on the move versus a hover and pull

All pretty minor and/or irrelevant stuff, just minor polish if you feel super enthusiastic.

The catch is one of the things I've found easier to learn from the tutorial and my biggest requirement is practice to achieve the setup consistently. Once I'm lined up for everything getting it out the sky is not a problem and neither is the throw. It's the lining everything up so that the catch is on that is my biggest area requiring work.

I have yet to get the arc catch, but I haven't made too many attempts at it as it seems you need to hit that fairly fluidly while in motion, where as the other you can do from a hover above you which gives more time for a brain to process the new skill. Perhaps there are methods of practicing progressive steps to work up to the skill - like you did with you inverted hover tutorial.

Not much you can do other than maybe add to the setting up of the trick, different conditions, some polish if you're over eager, and maybe suggested kite/line setups that lend themselves to making things easier for people starting on the skill.

The catch wasn't on my list of things to focus on, but conditions forced me into it one afternoon. Ideally I need to work on precision, bicycle rotations and speed control above all else right now in addition to polishing existing rough skills.

#8 --Pete

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 01:47 PM

Arrrg! That did it. Now I'm on KiteLife, too. Another time sink!
--Pete
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#9 Kitelife

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 01:47 PM

You may be right on those things... Mostly polish.

Myself, I tend to think that level of detail is best left to experimentation and exchange of personal experiences.

Just my philosophy, I like the idea of drawing the map and throwing in a compass. :)

Thanks Pete!

John Barresi

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#10 kwmf

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 10:56 PM

Myself, I tend to think that level of detail is best left to experimentation and exchange of personal experiences.


The more experience I am in things, the more I would agree with you ... but from a beginner perspective, a couple of ideas and possibilities for me to try out would be useful.

When you don't know what you don't know, having a few options will progress you to knowing what you don't know and then a few guideline to tell how to play with it and signs to look for that show whats working will help find the easiest path for the learner.

The more I learn, the less it matters ... but when you're starting out it matters a lot to have guidelines as to a good baseline and how and what to experiment with. I guess my level of agreement or disagreement depends on my level of skill .... so a good guideline for me is that if I start agreeing with you more then I must be getting better Posted Image

#11 kwmf

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 06:32 AM

UPDATE:

Got onto the 20' lines this weekend on the most divine low wind in the early evening and am now able to launch the catch from lower down in the window. Still not as low as in the tutorial, but I was reliably getting it when I made the pull. Next time I will push it to the 30's and then back out to the 50' lines.

I still find the hardest part the setup so the kite is going to fly straight to me, but at least I can identify when I'm set for the pull or not so I only make the pull if the setup is right.
(And I still pull and throw with my right hand so have to do a little swapping after the catch)

Good weekend flying

#12 Kitelife

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 12:01 AM

Sounds like you're having fun and playing with it, very cool. :)

Are you right handed?

I am, and both pull and throw with my right...

I catch predominantly using my (free) right hand as well, supporting the catch (like a backstop) with the left which is holding my handles side by side, ready for an easy split between R/L when I throw the kite back out.

Not sure how that compares?

John Barresi

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#13 kwmf

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 12:06 AM

I'm right handed, but I'm more co-ordinated with both handles in my right, so thats where they go and the pull (and catch) happens with my left. I then swap hands and throw with my right again.

I know I know ....
3 choices - Live with it, learn to throw left handed or learn to hold both handles in my left ;)


I'm blaming my dad for this one, he was right handed/footed but certain activities he'd do left handed/footed when everything else was done with his normal right side. I seem to have inherrited that gene (I hold my knife and fork like a left handed person for example) and it's crept into my flying too.

#14 REVflyer

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 03:16 AM

Can't swap sides forever, eventually you've gotta' learn that weaker hand sir!, so the throw is faster with your strong side. Fly the kite up and practice just holding it there (hover) with both handles in your weaker hand only. Some folks place their pinky finger in-between the grips. If your tuning is dead-on, the kite should simply balance, resting on a single finger (where on your "grip" it placed on the handles is a very personal, almost a natural selection process though!) This balance point should go across both handles. Find your neutral!

Once you can balance it, (one handed) it's going to much easier to center in the window and slightly adjust your leading edge positioning before the jerk of the top lines

The throw needs to be done with your strong side, the catch too, so your weaker hand does everything else, just as John describes it. A good long throw (80 feet or more) requires a couple of significant steps, like you were pitching a javelin. Really step into it and maybe increase the mass on the leading edge too, so it travels out carrying more momentum.

I'm a lefty, so my throw is done with the left side (pitched towards the right corner of the window, diagonally). The catch is initiated with my left hand as well, so the right hand is doing all the flying. With both handles positioned next to each other, the end of the throw should wind-up inverted (and pasted) at the bottom of the flying window (on the right side is my ideal)

Try a catch variation,... Instead of straight towards you, try a diagonal pull, very high in the window. You're after the kite making a big arc, eventually turned around by the wind and heading back away from you. If you pull too sharply or just on one line the leading edge will rotate part way only (facing parallel, pointing towards the horizon point), kind of 1/2 of a "falling leave" is what I call it. You'll have to prance backwards significantly to save it from impacting mother earth. (I'm still working on the repeatability of these two,... there's always something new to explore!)

#15 --Pete

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 08:35 AM

Right-handed, here, but left master-eyed, so I shoot left-handed which has resulted in doing a few other things left-handed. I catch either/both-handed, and throw right-handed. I seem to recall doing catch-n-toss with the handles in the left hand. (Hey; it's been 20 years!)

I think I held the handles with thumb opposite middle-ring-little, with the forefinger parallel to the handles to work as a pincer to assist shifting right-hand grip on the LE (catch in the middle, but toss from the end) and support the LE for a spear toss.

I saw the video, so I will practice giving the end of the LE a sideways flip to turn the LE away from me to help the "glide"; I used to just spear it down wind and hope for the best, which usually worked if there was enough wind.
--Pete
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#16 Jynx

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 10:43 AM

I tried, and tried, and Tried... to no avail!

I just can't get it to go the distance!

Do you suggest attaching weights so that it will toss the 250' needed for my lines? Posted Image

"When the power of love becomes more important than the love of power,

then there will be peace"

Jimi Hendrix

Posted Image


#17 REVflyer

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 11:52 AM

nope Jynx, throw it from a high enough bridge and pray for the best outcome possible. 250 foot lines?, you must have real wind where you live. You couldn't use those six times per year in my community!

you could also throw it from a cigarette boat operating under high speed, that would help take-up the slack, but you'd better not snag the water or you'll be buying a new kite, certainly a new frame at a minimum!

#18 Baloo

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 10:49 PM

Left handed, right eyed, fire a pistol left handed, tilt my head over to use the right eye, fire a rifle righthanded.

Eat with knife and fork right handed, cuz that is the way I was made to do it. Lay a table left handed.

No matter which hand I use I am no good at catch and throw, I know, just need more practice.

Still a bit cold out thee for this old Bear I am afraid though. :)

#19 fungus

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 12:15 AM

Hi Baloo

it was quite nice out yesterday, after walking the dogs, i went out and flew for 2 hours
put a coat on and venture outPosted Image

fungusPosted Image
wHind cHecks Har4 wHimps

#20 Baloo

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 02:11 PM

:blue-grin: :blue_wink:




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