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#61 RevWizard

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 10:27 PM

David,
This is how I interpret the first half. The second half as I understand will pivot from the top Rev.

David,
One question, how would you want to do this for Super Sixteen?

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

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#62 david ellison

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 01:38 AM

Thanks John - looks fine.

For the sixteen grid we would simply have 4 columns doing the same thing side by side - simultaneous radars around the bottom kite in each column

The second half would be a move where we radar around the top kites in each column. Please animate this as a separate sequence though so that they can be flown as independent moves

Can I suggest we simply call the moves "Radar around bottom" and " Radar around top"? Windscreen wiper is a name used for a different Decs move and will cause (even more) confusion!

#63 Baloo

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:03 AM

In watching the animation of David's idea made me think of a move. Not sure it it will work for a 16 grid. Might well work as a team though. Not seen it B4 but it might allready exist.

It would be another variation on the Radar type thing.

Start with lines horizontal, Pivot up in the "Radar" around left (or right) end for 1/3 rotation, stop, continue the radar type thing but using the top kite as a pivot (this would put the kites into a horizontal line but reversed from the start point). Stop, continue this time pivot down from the right, stop and pivot again, ending in the start position. Presume to unwind you would need to reverse, the kites could pivot individually to make the move look good?

Not sure if this makes sense, and it would probably be a team thing rather than a 16.

#64 Murph

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:20 AM

Not sure if were around that Saturday Chris .....as we did the 'Radar around bottom' at this years Portsmouth, check the video out at around 2:13 ....worked OK'ish and that was with 30 kites in 6 columns. And I'd say very few of the flyers had even seen the move before.

Chris

Edited by kristalis, 04 November 2010 - 03:22 AM.


#65 Felix Mottram

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:42 AM

Not sure if were around that Saturday Chris .....as we did the 'Radar around bottom' at this years Portsmouth, check the video out at around 2:13 ....worked OK'ish and that was with 30 kites in 6 columns. And I'd say very few of the flyers had even seen the move before.

Chris


I'm thinking that with 16 it would be relatively easy to have the four columns perform parallel followed moves. For instance with the kites facing up the top kites 180 around the right (or left) wing tip and then fly down one space with the second kite following with the 180 and so on until the whole line is facing down at which point the the lead kite does a 180 in the 'appropriate' direction and proceeds back to the top of the column.

All this assumes a close, but sensible, column spacing. <grins>

EDIT Thinks, if this was started out on one side of the window and the lines 'followed' on the upward leg the move could continue across the window in a 'caterpillar' like action...

Felix

Edited by Felix Mottram, 04 November 2010 - 11:54 AM.


#66 Baloo

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 01:28 PM

I was only there for the Sunday. Thanks for the link Chris.

#67 Murph

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 01:35 AM

Sounds like one of those realtime collaborative drawing tools might aid in development.

Both Imagination Cubed and Twiddla look fairly decent ...might suffice until a 'kite routine' iPad app comes along Posted Image

Chris

#68 Felix Mottram

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 01:08 PM

Sounds like one of those realtime collaborative drawing tools might aid in development.

Both Imagination Cubed and Twiddla look fairly decent ...might suffice until a 'kite routine' iPad app comes along Posted Image

Chris


There have been some good ideas added in this thread but the key is to link the moves into a viable routine and be sure that the fliers are familiar with the moves.

The freehand drawings are OK up to a point but I think that John's animations are what are needed to get the message across.

Thanks for the links.

Felix

#69 RevWizard

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 01:55 PM

Drawings are very helpful for me in order to create the animation. It is far easier to interpret then from a words only explanation.
Roughly sketched on paper with applicable notes is just fine. Just scan it and email it to me. I can read practically any format (e.g. .jpg, .tif, .png, .gif, .psd, .ppt, .pdf, bmp, .doc, .ai and so on). though PDF would be more preferred.

The problem I have at this time is that I am not that good yet with ActionScript3 thus I do most of my work by moving object around on the stage of Flash in reference to the timeline. This does take quite a bit more time. In time I will understand AS3 better thus will be able to spit out more animations each day, time permitting.
Now if the weather would cool down, was 100 yesterday, to something more normal for this time of year I will also be able to get more done.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#70 RevWizard

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 10:08 PM

David, Here is what I understand from what you sent me.

In the .swf version, not attached, there are Flash Action Script pauses between each maneuver. Unfortunately .gif doesn't understand these pauses.

I have finally reworked this for Super Sixteen.
diamond16_v07j.gif
I do detect a "possible" problem of performing this under lighter wind conditions.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#71 Felix Mottram

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 12:50 AM

<snip>
I do detect a "possible" problem of performing this under lighter wind conditions.


Which 'possible' problem did you have in mind <grins>

Felix

#72 Stephen

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:28 AM

Which 'possible' problem did you have in mind <grins>

Felix


Hi,
I have enjoyed watching this thread develop.
What I see here is what in square dance is based around the figure swing thru.

If I was calling it to real dancers it would possibly go something like assuming that the even columns were girls
"Girls Right U-Turn back,
Work with phantoms Grand swing thru,
all Right U-Turn back, (Note this would bad body flow for real dancers where left would be much better as in the Roll and Roll later)
Work with phantoms Grand swing thru once and a half and Roll and Roll,
Work with phantoms Half Left Grand swing thru and just the Girls Roll and Roll ."

A Swing Thru is a those who can turn 1/2 by the Right then those who can turn 1/2 by the Left. This is normally a 4 dancer move.
Phantoms and non-dancer spots and using the Grand enables the Swing Thru to work with more than 4 dancers.
and Roll adds a 1/4 turn (90degree) on the spot in the direction of body flow to the end of a figure (and Roll and Roll is a 1/2 turn (180 degree))
U-Turn back is a turn on the spot 1/2 (180degree) towards partner - hence the need for Right to start with to define turning the other way.

I think the above sounds complicated, but it is not really.

It is animated horizontally, would it be possible for everybody to turn 1/4 left and then carry out the routine vertically?
Assuming that there is enough room in the wind window and above and below the initial matrix.

Talking of Matrix, how feasible would it be to manipulate the matrix into different arrangements e.g. what you have is a 4x4 Matrix that could be turned into a 8x2, 2x8, 16x1, 1x16. In the animated routine the matrix is expanded into a 6x4 using phantoms.

I really have no comprehension of what is not possible, I guess it all comes down to wraps and line management in the end.
What might be possible for 4 or 8 with fliers moving as well as kites would not scale to 16 because of the logistics in moving 16 fliers as well as kites.

I see a square as in square dance as a 16 matrix i.e.4x4 with 8 real and 8 phantoms.

Cheers
Stephen

Edited by Stephen, 06 November 2010 - 05:26 AM.


#73 Felix Mottram

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:10 AM

Hi,
I have enjoyed watching this thread develop.
What I see here is what in square dance is based around the figure swing thru.
<snip>
I think the above sounds complicated, but it is not really.

It is animated horizontally, would it be possible for everybody to turn 1/4 left and then carry out the routine vertically?
Assuming that there is enough room in the wind window and above and below the initial matrix.

Talking of Matrix, how feasible would it be to manipulate the matrix into different arrangements e.g. what you have is a 4x4 Matrix that could be turned into a 8x2, 2x8, 16x1, 1x16. In the animated routine the matrix is expanded into a 6x4 using phantoms.

I really have no comprehension of what is not possible, I guess it all comes down to wraps and line management in the end.
What might be possible for 4 or 8 with fliers moving as well as kites would not scale to 16 because of the logistics in moving 16 fliers as well as kites.

I see a square as in square dance as a 16 matrix i.e.4x4 with 8 real and 8 phantoms.

Cheers
Stephen


Hi Stephen,

Thank you very much for coming back into the thread. You obviously have a range of terminology which could be very useful and yes, the 'swing through' does have a very important place in the development of the grid concept which we are exploring. As yet, given the practical capability of the fliers, this aspect has not been explored in detail.

It would certainly possible to switch the last animation that John did into the vertical. Equally, we could switch to a different matrix but we have yet to develop this 'on the ground' in depth although at Dunstable we did, as I recall, switch to a following mode at some point.

You are correct in noting the phantoms, I think. They are a bit special in terms of the perception of the participants <grins> (making a move around a space that is not occupied by a kite?)

The wraps and line management are key considerations. Please see the following link, about one minute in for the 'sprocket' which may indicate what we are up against:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp0ZUOAA-fU

I do not quite understand your last comment but look forward to learning more about the terminology that you are using.

Best wishes

Felix

#74 Stephen

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:23 AM

Hi Stephen,

Thank you very much for coming back into the thread. You obviously have a range of terminology which could be very useful and yes, the 'swing through' does have a very important place in the development of the grid concept which we are exploring. As yet, given the practical capability of the fliers, this aspect has not been explored in detail.

It would certainly possible to switch the last animation that John did into the vertical. Equally, we could switch to a different matrix but we have yet to develop this 'on the ground' in depth although at Dunstable we did, as I recall, switch to a following mode at some point.

You are correct in noting the phantoms, I think. They are a bit special in terms of the perception of the participants <grins> (making a move around a space that is not occupied by a kite?)

The wraps and line management are key considerations. Please see the following link, about one minute in for the 'sprocket' which may indicate what we are up against:-

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Qp0ZUOAA-fU

I do not quite understand your last comment but look forward to learning more about the terminology that you are using.

Best wishes

Felix


Hi Felix
I have just seen the video and do not ever expect to attain that level of ability.

Although most square dancing is carried out symmetrically around the very centre of the square, there is the possibility of using asymmetric choreography.
Having looked at the complete routine I think that I could call it (certainly most of it) to square dancers - apart from the signature finish. Some parts would need to be contrived.

Your sprocket move is an asymmetric Exchange the Diamond followed by a U-turn back and another asymmetric Exchange the Diamond. Some Diamond Circulates (or Stars) added for good measure. See http://www.ceder.net...ge=usa&level=C2 and http://www.tamtwirle...he_diamond.html

Your formation is asymmetric because your Pinwheels?? Stars (or Diamonds which are regarded as being orthogonally identical) are right and left handed whereas in normal symmetrical square dancing both Stars would be right or left handed.

A Normal square is a 4x4 Matrix with phantoms on the outside 4 corner spots and the very centre 4 spots. All real dancers are facing the centre of the 4x4 Matrix. I was wondering whether there is any mileage in developing choreography for very 8 good fliers working as a square. I realise that line warps around team members are the major limitation.



Look forward to how this develops. Square Dancing has an International standardisation of figures so that if you dance a level in the UK you can dance anywhere in the world at that same level. I have called in the US, Japan, Denmark, Germany with no problems. It would be good if the same idea of terminology could be developed for Rev routines. Once the terminology has been developed then exchange becomes so much easier and the opportunity to have computer programs to assist in animation and generating/checking choreography will exist.

Cheers
Stephen

Edited by Stephen, 06 November 2010 - 05:30 AM.


#75 Felix Mottram

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:42 AM

http://www.tamtwirle...he_diamond.html

Hi Felix
I have just seen the video and do not ever expect to attain that level of ability.

Although most square dancing is carried out symmetrically around the very centre of the square, there is the possibility of using asymmetric choreography.
Having looked at the complete routine I think that I could call it (certainly most of it) to square dancers - apart from the signature finish. Some parts would need to be contrived.

Your sprocket move is an asymmetric Exchange the Diamond followed by a U-turn back and another asymmetric Exchange the Diamond. Some Diamond Circulates (or Stars) added for good measure. See http://www.ceder.net...ge=usa&level=C2 and http://www.tamtwirle...he_diamond.html

Your formation is asymmetric because your Pinwheels?? Stars (or Diamonds which are regarded as being orthogonally identical) are right and left handed whereas in normal symmetrical square dancing both Stars would be right or left handed.

A Normal square is a 4x4 Matrix with phantoms on the outside 4 corner spots and the very centre 4 spots. All real dancers are facing the centre of the 4x4 Matrix. I was wondering whether there is any mileage in developing choreography for very 8 good fliers working as a square. I realise that line warps around team members are the major limitation.

Look forward to how this develops. Square Dancing has an International standardisation of figures so that if you dance a level in the UK you can dance anywhere in the world at that same level. I have called in the US, Japan, Denmark, Germany with no problems. It would be good if the same idea of terminology could be developed for Rev routines. Once the terminology has been developed then exchange becomes so much easier and the opportunity to have computer programs to assist in animation and generating/checking choreography will exist.

Cheers
Stephen


Hi Stephen,

Thanks for your feedback. I think that the issue of the 'kite lines' may result in the asymmetric aspect of what we have developed so far.

We have been discussing the issue of calling the figures in an international situation which was basically the reason for starting this thread.

I think that the notion of accommodating the phantoms will be very interesting and could be very effective in the graphical element of the revolution routines. Hitting the appropriate 'points in the sky' will be crucial in the overall presentation.

Thanks again

Felix

#76 RevWizard

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 07:21 AM

Which 'possible' problem did you have in mind <grins>

Felix

This!
8vertical.png
There are 8 tip to tip vertically, just begging to collide

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#77 Felix Mottram

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 07:46 AM

This!
8vertical.png
There are 8 tip to tip vertically, just begging to collide


OK, I guess that we do not go there... I was thinking that you might mean the 'stop' moment with half the kites in a 'leading edge up' moment.

Felix

#78 RevWizard

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:47 AM

OK, I guess that we do not go there... I was thinking that you might mean the 'stop' moment with half the kites in a 'leading edge up' moment.

Felix

Now that the animated basics are completed, staggering the timing won't be much extra work.
Would you like to do that? If so what might be your suggestions.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#79 Felix Mottram

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 09:26 AM

Now that the animated basics are completed, staggering the timing won't be much extra work.
Would you like to do that? If so what might be your suggestions.


The stop interval is not a problem as long as the fliers recognise the intent!

Felix

#80 RevWizard

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:17 AM

The .swf version of the Bigot with pauses is presently at: http://gyraphicdesig..._v07o-play.html
This url will changes with version changes with the older version being removed.

Edited by johnnmitchell, 07 November 2010 - 06:09 PM.
Updated URL 2010.11.07

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!





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