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#241 RevWizard

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 08:19 AM

I have access to a scanner today!

I hope this helps <grins>

Felix

Now that's the way to go.
I think it would be fun to base this one off the (6 - Boxed In). It could also be started easily from (5 - Four Groups)
With 6, we would start with all kites turning individually left 180, then follow you sketch.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#242 RevWizard

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 11:11 AM

Felix,
There is a very early DRAFT online under item 6 labeled 6.1
Steps 1 to 4 appear fine.
I am not very clear on steps 5 and 6. In addition it ends up with each individual group rotated 90 ACW.
I also have not added in control buttons and there is other cleanup to be done.
I'll be back to this much later today, gmt-8.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#243 RevWizard

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 09:59 PM

Felix,
There is a very early DRAFT online under item 6 labeled 6.1
Steps 1 to 4 appear fine.
I am not very clear on steps 5 and 6. In addition it ends up with each individual group rotated 90 ACW.
I also have not added in control buttons and there is other cleanup to be done.
I'll be back to this much later today, gmt-8.

I have added in button control of the very early DRAFT version, also known as 6.1a
I have also added in an alternate version which is labeled version 6.1b

At present I am working on what I call "square rotation" which will be labeled 6.2

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#244 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 06:55 AM

Felix,
There is a very early DRAFT online under item 6 labeled 6.1
Steps 1 to 4 appear fine.
I am not very clear on steps 5 and 6. In addition it ends up with each individual group rotated 90 ACW.
I also have not added in control buttons and there is other cleanup to be done.
I'll be back to this much later today, gmt-8.


I had imagined an anti clockwise parallel outward loop turn before flying forwards back to the grid, then rotating the grid anti clockwise before attending to any position issues in the four blocks <grins>

Felix

#245 RevWizard

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 08:21 AM

I am not following you very well. Can you tell me which if any of the steps were correct.
How about if one of the early steps were to be reversed for the ACW?

I am on maneuver 6-2 right now. Maybe it might be more what you are describing.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#246 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 08:34 AM

I am not following you very well. Can you tell me which if any of the steps were correct.
How about if one of the early steps were to be reversed for the ACW?

I am on maneuver 6-2 right now. Maybe it might be more what you are describing.


Hi John,

You had interpreted the initial intent correctly. The 'red' rotation was what I had in mind in parallel moving back to the grid 'green' and than cycling back to the original position 'blue'. I had not checked to see if the four blocks would need further 'correction' at the end of this sequence. Not easy to do in the head on a bicycle. <grins>

Felix

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#247 RevWizard

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 10:25 AM

Hi John,

You had interpreted the initial intent correctly. The 'red' rotation was what I had in mind in parallel moving back to the grid 'green' and than cycling back to the original position 'blue'. I had not checked to see if the four blocks would need further 'correction' at the end of this sequence. Not easy to do in the head on a bicycle. <grins>

Felix

As my dense mind slowly understands. I got it now!

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#248 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 11:32 AM

As my dense mind slowly understands. I got it now!


OK, but your 'slide' back to start is an interesting take on the possibilities.

I am slightly disappointed that we have had no contribution based on the American football notion of apparently random moves to achieve a specific configuration.

Come on you 'left pondians' let's hear your ideas.

On a slightly different note I would like to propose The Dave Brubeck Quartet, Time Out, 'Take Five' composed by Paul Desmond as a theme for the Super Sixteen!

Felix

#249 RevWizard

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 12:07 PM

OK, but your 'slide' back to start is an interesting take on the possibilities.

I am slightly disappointed that we have had no contribution based on the American football notion of apparently random moves to achieve a specific configuration.

Come on you 'left pondians' let's hear your ideas.

On a slightly different note I would like to propose The Dave Brubeck Quartet, Time Out, 'Take Five' composed by Paul Desmond as a theme for the Super Sixteen!

Felix

There is so much that can be done here. The problem is to keep it very well organized for all the different elements.
Eventually we will have a catalog of elements that can be fitted together randomly for a routine. But that will take some doing.

Now 6-2 (called Square Rotation) is available at: http://gyraphicdesign.com/Super16

I don't think I will get to your 6-1 rework today.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#250 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 12:24 PM

There is so much that can be done here. The problem is to keep it very well organized for all the different elements.
Eventually we will have a catalog of elements that can be fitted together randomly for a routine. But that will take some doing.

Now 6-2 (called Square Rotation) is available at: http://gyraphicdesign.com/Super16

I don't think I will get to your 6-1 rework today.


John,

I have reviewed the site today and I think that there are some basic issues that need to be considered.

The first would be the basic grid set-up which would be based on (1)1234 (2)1234 (3)1234 (4)1234 in vertical columns counting from the top/down and based on the ground configuration starting from the left hand side from the fliers perspective. The left hand kite is number one and tops the column.

The left hand column consists of the 1st 4 kites on the left hand side of the field. This follows across the grid. There may be reasons to alter this configuration but they should be stated.

Felix

Edited by Felix Mottram, 28 November 2010 - 12:27 PM.


#251 RevWizard

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 02:11 PM

I agree on this.
On the ground they would also have their positions.
No 1. 1-4 is 1-4 on the ground and would be known as Column 1 or Group 1
No 2. 1-4 is 5-8 on the ground and would be known as Column 2 or Group 2
No 3. 1-4 is 9-12 on the ground and would be known as Column 3 or Group 3
No 4. 1-4 is 13-16 on the ground and would be known as Column 4 or Group 4

When Column 1 works as a Group they could be in the basic formation of 1 and 4 on top and 2 and 3 on the bottom.
The same on columns 2, 3 and 4.
This should make the training aspect much easier as they would rarely fly 16 at once in most trainings.
You could have basic commands such as No.1 form Column. No. 1 form Group.
You could also have a command such as No.1 form Row.

Thought?

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#252 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 04:12 PM

I agree on this.
On the ground they would also have their positions.
No 1. 1-4 is 1-4 on the ground and would be known as Column 1 or Group 1
No 2. 1-4 is 5-8 on the ground and would be known as Column 2 or Group 2
No 3. 1-4 is 9-12 on the ground and would be known as Column 3 or Group 3
No 4. 1-4 is 13-16 on the ground and would be known as Column 4 or Group 4

When Column 1 works as a Group they could be in the basic formation of 1 and 4 on top and 2 and 3 on the bottom.
The same on columns 2, 3 and 4.
This should make the training aspect much easier as they would rarely fly 16 at once in most trainings.
You could have basic commands such as No.1 form Column. No. 1 form Group.
You could also have a command such as No.1 form Row.

Thought?


The four blocks are 1 & 2 rows of columns 1 & 2 (A's), 1 & 2 rows of columns 3 & 4 (B's), 3 & 4 rows of columns 1 & 2 (C's) and 3 & 4 rows of columns 3 & 4 just so everyone is clear...

AABB
AABB
CCDD
CCDD

Felix

#253 RevWizard

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 06:18 PM

The four blocks are 1 & 2 rows of columns 1 & 2 (A's), 1 & 2 rows of columns 3 & 4 (B's), 3 & 4 rows of columns 1 & 2 (C's) and 3 & 4 rows of columns 3 & 4 just so everyone is clear...

AABB
AABB
CCDD
CCDD

Felix

I guess we better get this all settled out now and not later, because almost every thing has apparently been animated differently. At least I think so.
I started this reply using hexadecimal then I realized for many it is too difficult to understand.
Instead I will use double digits for all numbers.

It looks like this on the ground:
01 02 03 04 | 05 06 07 08 | 09 10 11 12 | 13 14 15 16

The groups I made are like this:
Group 1 is 01 to 04
Group 2 is 05 to 08
Group 3 is 09 to 12
Group 4 is 13 to 16

When working as columns(the vertical) from left to right they would look like this.
01 05 09 13
02 06 10 14
03 07 11 15
04 08 12 16

Now the way I was doing most of the animation was based off of groups(blocks) that looked like this:
01 04 ... 13 16
02 03 ... 14 15

05 08 ... 09 12
06 07 ... 10 11

I also used color coding for the kites in that:
red is 01 05 09 13
blu is 02 06 10 14
grn is 03 07 11 15
yel is 04 08 12 16
Some of the early animation did not follow this properly.

Now in my work, where I did use groups(blocks) versus columns I have calculated the line twists. If I were to shift all of this to columns where groups(blocks) are split into two columns, we would have a bit more difficult situation for calculating twists. I think we would need another volunteer to do this calculation while I continue with the animations.

I would suggest that you base the grid as before on columns but them have the ability to change to groups(blocks) from columns for maneuvers that fit better to groups(blocks).

You might also consider a rows(the horizontal) as a third way of grouping which would look like this.
01 02 03 04
05 06 07 08
09 10 11 12
13 14 15 16
I could also animate the transiting from columns to rows to blocks in the six directions.
From any of the groupings you could have 3 commands such as:
Group to columns(the vertical)
Group to rows(the horizontal)
Group to blocks

Thoughts?

John M

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#254 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 11:01 PM

I guess we better get this all settled out now and not later, because almost every thing has apparently been animated differently.

<snip>

Now in my work, where I did use groups(blocks) versus columns I have calculated the line twists.

<snip>
Thoughts?

John M


I think that having a handle on line twists is very helpful indeed. The naming conventions need to reflect the practical considerations and the experience/knowledge of the grid fliers.

Felix

#255 RevWizard

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 08:12 AM

I think that having a handle on line twists is very helpful indeed. The naming conventions need to reflect the practical considerations and the experience/knowledge of the grid fliers.

Felix

Do you have any thoughts on the different group formations: Column, Block and Row?

For my documentation I am documenting the different elements with numbers such as 6.2, 3.1.1 and etc. I have left it open on the name side as I suspect that could change at times.

It will be quite easy to add in the experience levels to the web site. I'll let you guys decide what they should be.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#256 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 08:58 AM

Do you have any thoughts on the different group formations: Column, Block and Row?

For my documentation I am documenting the different elements with numbers such as 6.2, 3.1.1 and etc. I have left it open on the name side as I suspect that could change at times.

It will be quite easy to add in the experience levels to the web site. I'll let you guys decide what they should be.


I had noticed that some of your starting positions seemed unfamiliar and now it is clear that it was the groupings were different. The idea of being able to call by columns or rows is a good one. From the sixteen grid 'form diamonds by rows vertically' or 'form diamonds by columns horizontally' might be examples of how this could work.

I take your point about the line wraps relative to the way you had been calculating them. The different groupings can obviously make an impact.

Felix

#257 RevWizard

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:25 PM

The attached drawing is what I propose as the basics for group transiting between columns, rows and blocks.
The other three possibilities are just the reverse of these.
static_layout_v01.jpg
From this I know can rework easily most of my existing work.
From this group transitings, I will create the 16 grid version.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#258 --Pete

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:53 PM

In most all of these maneuvers it strikes me that where the different kites get isolated, and start and stop moving at different times, gives a less graceful appearance. Some thought should be taken to ensuring that at least two kites begin moving and stop moving at the same time. It might require that the kites move at different speeds, or it might require a completely different approach to getting the kites from one position to the next.

Just one opinion on the animations.
--Pete
(sesquipedalian man)

#259 RevWizard

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:11 PM

In most all of these maneuvers it strikes me that where the different kites get isolated, and start and stop moving at different times, gives a less graceful appearance. Some thought should be taken to ensuring that at least two kites begin moving and stop moving at the same time. It might require that the kites move at different speeds, or it might require a completely different approach to getting the kites from one position to the next.

Just one opinion on the animations.

Many thanks for your inputs.
At this time we are only working on the rough basics.
Once we have the basics worked out we will be going into a much smoother timing of which we will need a lots of input from teams as to what would be more appealing to the public watching. At the same time we will be creating elements that smoothly fit together with each other.
Don't expect this project to be ready next month, however we are shooting for the spring in the northern hemisphere.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#260 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:42 PM

The attached drawing is what I propose as the basics for group transiting between columns, rows and blocks.
The other three possibilities are just the reverse of these.

From this I know can rework easily most of my existing work.
From this group transitings, I will create the 16 grid version.


We have not had reason to use transitions like these previously. I was referring to calling the rows (1-4) to form diamonds in a vertical stack:-

/ \
\ /
/ \
\ /
/ \
\ /
/ \
\ /

or columns (1-4) to form diamonds in a horizontal stack:-

/ \ / \ / \ / \
\ / \ / \ / \ /

The blocks are as previously suggested:-

AA BB
AA BB
CC DD
CC DD

There are no moves to go to, just the identification of the group.

That being said, you have started to formalise the 'American Football' moves that I had in mind which could be very interesting indeed.

Felix




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