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Frame / Sail progression


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#1 kwmf

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 06:49 AM

Hi there

Currently I have both full sail and full vent B series and have the following progression in my mind for setup...
  • Full sail - race rods
  • Full sail - 3 wrap
  • Vented - race rods
  • Vented 3 wrap
  • Vented 4 wrap
Naturally, this doesn't include the double leading edges, different linesets, etc ... it's just my simple line-up that I think of when I'm trying to pick from when assessing the conditions.


My question is how would you slot a mid-vent into that mix?
Without any experience on the mid-vent, my guess is that one would go from the full sail 3 wrap to the mid with race rods, but where to from there? Would the next step up be the mid with 3 wrap and then vented with 3 wrap or mid race to vented race?

I'm working with the assumption that everything is standard and non-modified and that you want to fly using wind power and don't have good low wind skills. How would you slot in a mid to the lineup?

Steven




#2 Watty

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:56 AM

In my lineup, I tend to go from Full Sail - race rods straight to a Full vent - race rods. This is altered a bit if I am flying with others, but by myself, it works for me. If I were to throw a mid-vent in the mix, I would probably go from Full sail - race rods to mid vent - race rods, then full vent - race rods, then up from there with 3 wrap, then 4 wrap.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#3 REVflyer

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:15 AM

i'd have all three kite versions
each sporting a Race frame unless the weather conditions absolutely demanded I change something.

If flying alone
I'd want it overpowered as a standard operating procedure, ('tis better to frame light & give ground if necessary in a big gust)

team flying
prefers underpowered (better to fall out of the sky then go surging off into orbit!)

Teams switch to heavier frames and higher breaking strength line-sets, . . . all in an effort to slow down their kites.

Use 3 wrap frames when the conditions are just a "touch twitchy for your liking", everything is fine and safe, just a touch too wiggly!

Use 4 wraps when you're bound and determined to keep the current kite flying regardless of how the conditions have changed since you set it up.

I'd change kites before I ever went to inserting two frames into the leading edge. Personally? too much hassle to remove the darn things afterwards.

Short handles will dull responsiveness, longer throws will increase it.

Down spars usually break before the leading edge (in flight),.. the whole thing is reverse if impacting mother earth though!

#4 Aerochic

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 03:35 PM

A Midvent with Race Rods is a magical combination, you need that! :ani_punk:

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#5 John Barresi

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:43 PM

team flying
prefers underpowered (better to fall out of the sky then go surging off into orbit!)

Teams switch to heavier frames and higher breaking strength line-sets, . . . all in an effort to slow down their kites.

Pardon the off-topic, but... Pffft, what team you YOU flying with? :blink:

Our squad would rather be overpowered than underpowered, for sure...

The only time we go to heavier lines is if the kites are so overloaded that they're becoming erratic. ;)

We like 'em loaded, lots of juice in the engine.

==

Back to topic... If I had to do a progression...

  • Full sail - race rods
  • Full sail - 3 wrap
  • Mid-Vent w/Race
  • Mid-Vent w/3 wrap
  • Vented 3 wrap
  • Vented 4 wrap
Somewhat interchangeable between #2 & #3.

Really, a progression is hard to lay down because of variances like turbulence and the job at hand (individual vs team vs short line, etc).

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#6 Jonesey

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 01:02 AM

Of course the air's a bit denser here so our crossovers are at slightly different windspeeds (just threw that in to start another debate Posted Image) ... however I tend to go for

1. Full sail - Race rods
2. Mid-Vent - Race rods
3. Full-Vent - 3 Wrap
4. tea and cakes in the local cafe

I have re-discovered my 2~4 for light wind floating this year, had some glamour days of under @ 3 knots floating fun

I'm pretty alone in my pier group in not getting the Full-vent/race frame setup ... just strikes me as a very narrow band between mid-vent and 3 wrap Full-vent but I think its because I prefer less flexible frames in the upper wind ranges?

If its double stuff or mega vent weather its probably stopped being fun so I'm off home or to the Pub!

#7 kwmf

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 01:31 AM

@JB
Thanks for the off topic, I found that very useful information actually. It also tells me that your scale is probably lined up to ensure the sails are well powered.

As for the line-up ... I know it's hard to lay down, but the only reason I have a mental progression is so that I have a base scale of reference to equate conditions to kites. Naturally, experience will allow conditionst to dictate exceptions and variences, but at least I have a base scale.

Steven

#8 Baloo

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:11 PM

Think you might be on a bit of a sticky wicket suggesting things might be denser here Jonesey, even if you mean the wind. :kid_devlish:

I am very lazy and tend to carry a full sail set with Race rods. And a full sail set with 4 wraps.

Pretty much OK for all wind conditions then, unless I have to double a LE up.

Would go
Full Race, Mid Race, (maybe Full 4 but the mid is my main choice) Vented Race, Mid 4, Full 4. Maybe possibly depending on my mood.

Bearing in mind Steven's first post didnt have a Mid vent please ignore the above. Just fly how you feel. :)

#9 btbt

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 11:39 PM

Huh??? Are there no 2 wrap frame fans out there? Am I the only one who doesn`t swear by race rods? To me there is a huge difference between the low end range/performance of a 2 wrap frame vs a race rod frame, irregardless of the type of sail. I`m thinking this because of the extra sproing and the light(er) feel/touch of the 2 wrap....at least for my flying style, liking lower winds, and the pursuit of pushing kites to the bottom of their wind range...especially the full and mid vented sails.
My last (new kite) rev purchase was a mid vented 1.5 with a 2 wrap....that slotted in nicely with the rest.
Here`s my collection with frame info (I have both rock and sand beach depending on the tide.....rock beach for these pix)....

http://good-times.we...578329343UUgkbv

This may be prior to race rods and gets a little off topic sometimes....an older thread about sul frames with vented kites.....


http://www.revkites....%20wrap%20frame

bt

Edited by btbt, 01 October 2010 - 11:41 PM.


#10 stroke survivor

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 12:14 PM

Count me in as a 2 wrap fan!! :kid_content: Saved my day many times, use the race frame if needed in a little higher winds!! I use my 2 wrap mostly in my 1.5 SUL, the valley winds are very unpredictable!! :kid_cussing:!!

wayne from portland
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#11 Mike

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 01:53 PM

my 2-wraps are lighter than my race rods, so if I'm concerned about weight, I'll use 2 wraps too.
Mike Kory:
Posted Image and Posted Image

#12 kwmf

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 02:03 PM

My race rods are lighter than my 2 wraps by 2-3 grams.

#13 btbt

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 12:41 AM

my 2-wraps are lighter than my race rods, so if I'm concerned about weight, I'll use 2 wraps too.


My race rods are lighter than my 2 wraps by 2-3 grams.



That`s interesting...I`ve noticed very slight weight/diameter differences over the years (batches) in frames....
Nothing major just one rod fitting really tightly into an endcap while another is not so tightly fitted in the same endcap. A half wrap...
Have you tried your 2 wrap frame out? I didn`t see it mentioned the original post...
Anyway you`ll notice the sproiginess of the 2 wrap. You may or may not like it.
After I got my 1st 1.5 sul I tried the 2 wrap in a full sailed 1.5 and thought it was ok...just ok.
Then I bought a full vented and tried the 2 wraps and went yee haw!!! This many years before race rods so never bothered with any of the 1.5 frames.
Bought a race frame for a Rev 1 and it`s ok as well....still like the Rev 1 w 2 wrap the best....(I`m guessing this combo....sedg 1 w 2 wraps is about as close to a Zen`s flight I can get without the added cost). Tried the race set on a vented Rev 1 and didn`t like it at all.
Opposite from the 1.5`s....love the 2 wraps on mid and full vented 1.5`s.
bt

Edited by btbt, 04 October 2010 - 12:46 AM.


#14 stroke survivor

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 10:45 AM

Makes me think - UH Oh - Bart's area!! I'll have to try my race frame against my 2 wrap and get a comparison!! Just know that the 2 wrap works, so far!! :)

wayne from portland
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