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My leaders ... your thoughts


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#41 stroke survivor

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 09:39 AM

This leader differential question got me to closely check my usual settings!! For my SUL, I use 15" handles and use 5-6" of differential. For my Rev 1 or my vented 1.5, I use 13" handles and have 4-5" difference! I've found the 15" work good for the SUL, but 13" work better on the others!! Any one else notice a difference using different handles?? :)

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#42 Mike

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 09:44 AM

8.5" is a lot for anyone!
Back when I used to fly on iQuad, most of the team flew around 6 1/2" or less of differential.
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#43 bartman

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 09:47 AM

Yes, I agree this was a lot.

But do you think, Mike, that some time spent this way will make reverse control skills easier when moving back to a more normal setting? To me is seems logical the same way as flying on short lines tunes skills when moving back to 120.

Am I out in left field (or any field)?

Bart

#44 stroke survivor

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 09:59 AM

Bart - If you can get flying with that much differential, just think how much easier it will be with a little less?? 8" is a lot of difference!!:kid_content:

wayne from portland
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#45 bartman

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 10:41 AM

I had the advantage of a good wind on Saturday. I'm sure such extreme brakes with a lighter wind would be impossible.

Hmmm, I guess this could also go back to making upright test launches putting the knot out further each time until it can't lauch at all then going in one. See how that works for various wind levels. Having to hold the handles almost flat at time to move is not the most comfortable.

Bart

#46 stroke survivor

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 11:10 AM

Might be impossible for us mere mortals, but you're onto a good idea using the launch test!! :kid_smartass:

wayne from portland
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#47 Felix Mottram

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 01:57 PM

I had the advantage of a good wind on Saturday. I'm sure such extreme brakes with a lighter wind would be impossible.

Hmmm, I guess this could also go back to making upright test launches putting the knot out further each time until it can't lauch at all then going in one. See how that works for various wind levels. Having to hold the handles almost flat at time to move is not the most comfortable.

Bart


You might try holding the handles horizontally which may give better articulation and offers a more controlled 'long arm' pull at launch and in flight. <grins>

Felix

#48 bartman

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 02:35 PM

See, all these things that you mentioned at WSIKF Felix and I'm forgetting how we talked about that!


Bart

Edited by bartman, 04 October 2010 - 02:35 PM.


#49 Felix Mottram

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 02:56 PM

See, all these things that you mentioned at WSIKF Felix and I'm forgetting how we talked about that!


Bart


Bart,

Don't worry, as with the wing tip turns on the Dec's web site, some things take a long time to gain relevance.

Felix

#50 stroke survivor

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 03:05 PM

Isn't that why we chat here - to remember things we've forgotten or never even thought of??!! :)

wayne from portland
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#51 Mike

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 06:53 AM

Yes, I agree this was a lot.

But do you think, Mike, that some time spent this way will make reverse control skills easier when moving back to a more normal setting? To me is seems logical the same way as flying on short lines tunes skills when moving back to 120.

Am I out in left field (or any field)?

Bart

I haven't tried it, so I can't say.
Let us know how it works out.
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#52 bartman

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:48 AM

Either my mid vent has begun channeling John's kites or I've had some incredible luck lately or something has finally clicked in my head, but yesterday after work I had some of the best flying I have ever had here.

I haven't changed anything. Still using a 3 wrap frame on a mid vent with all the top line out as far as I can put it (need to take a real measurement at some point of the actual difference instead of just my mental figuring) and in winds that are stronger 20 feet up than along the ground, but not strong like some of the stuff we get here, just average, nice wind with few gusts.

The kite is still staying in the air and I don't even need to lay the lines flat with each other do it either.

The wind forecast for today is favorable so right after work I'm going to rush out again and see if this lucky streak continues.

Some things that were tough to do on that brake were upright hovers especially lower ones where the wind was not as nice and upright launches looked a little rough with all the extra tug needed to get it off the ground.

But, some of the things that really worked much better that I was so happy with were backing up at an angle with it looking like I had control instead of it flipping all over the place, tip turns tail end first around, hovering at different angles and moving between hover positions without needed the whole sky to do it, inverted slides in both directions instead of one way really good and one way really bad, hovers near the ground that had a significant reduction in wobble!

The backing up was the biggest mental block for me and as I worked on this I got to thinking that it is not extremely hard to hover vertical and move the kite up at an angle so why not just do that and add a bit of tilt to it? That seemed to trigger the muscle process to smooth these out.

Now for the practice, practice, practice to really smooth things further. I'm curious what my results may look like in the 40kph wind instead of the 20kph. I'm thinking probably still quite rough.

The other "new" thing was tormenting some kids. They were throwing small pebbles at the kite while it was in the air which wasn't exactly what I would want to see happen, but they only had about a 20 foot arm on them so easy to stay out of reach and tease them. I had to end it when they went to reload with bigger rocks!

Glad Steve started this thread, just opened up new thinking!

Bart



#53 REVflyer

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:58 AM

when you need a tiny burst of forward drive
slide you grip all the way up to the top of the handles and then wrap your index finger OVER the leaders, pinching them downward. You'll be amazed how well that tiny pinch works. Just a quick squeeze and it suddenly gets a dose of forward drive! Try it for yourself and see if it helps for upright hover or a quick burst of forward when you seem doomed to fall out of the sky.

#54 SkyPuppet

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:29 PM

I've enjoyed reading through this topic, and I've done so quite a few times. As I'm prone to do, here is my 2 cents:

Concerning leader setup, I've made up leaders that are about 8.25 inches long on top, 1.5 inches on the bottom. The tops have knots starting about 1.75 inches from the handles and tied about every half inch after that. I say "about" because the measurement is eyeballed, against the other leader, as I was making them, and everything is as even as is humanly possible lol. The bottom leaders have just 2 knots, one at the end and another tied about a quarter of an inch away, or about half the length between the top knots. This effectively gives me the ability to adjust in quarter of an inch increments without having enough knots that are tied closely together to make the leader stiff (based on my leader material).

Concerning differential, my current setup this morning would yield 4.25 inches. However........... I can't see differential between top and bottom leaders as being a decent way to set a baseline. This number would be relevant if all of the parts concerning a Rev were rigid..... But the only rigid parts, IMHO, are the handles themselves, the leaders, and the bridle, and calling the leader and bridle "rigid" is almost a stretch. I rotated my lines today (120's), and using the ruler on my winder, I measured about 2.75 inches worth of stretch in the top lines! And this number is bound to change, slightly over the course of a week or so, as the stretch relaxes, or becomes actual creep. If you add this to my 4.25 inches of differential at the leaders, I'm flying on 7 inches of differential......
And, on top of all this..... One's physical ability and range of motion comes into play here, as does their grip on the handles, as mentioned above. I hold my handles with the top lines resting on my index fingers, and just the tips of my pinkies resting near the middle-bottoms of the grips, because my right wrist hurts most of the time and this is most comfortable for me. This would have to play into my differential measurement somehow, as someone else with 7 inches of differential could be flying in a manner that wouldn't represent my same setup.

All in all, it really is about "feel". Now that I am familiar with the Rev, I can force it to do most of the tricks with just about any setup I can make with my leaders. Don't get me wrong, there is a sweet spot to be had, but it will be very individualized and on a person-by-person basis. Team flying would be the only instance where I wouldn't recommend everyone flying on their own personal favorite setting. So, make sure you are flying on adjustable leaders, and make sure you are experimenting - and often! It doesn't matter how many times 5 knots back has felt right to me - if I don't get the feeling I'm looking for I adjust till I do.
My advice, then (so long winded, sorry) with a 1.5 or Zen, would be to adjust until you can comfortably make the Rev will hold an upright hover, about half way up the window without having to correct for forwards or backwards (or up and down movements) much. The famed "neutral" position. You should also be able to hold a sideways hover, again half way up the window, with very little correction for forwards or backwards (left or right movements) much. Make small adjustments from the neutral setting - I adjust for just a little extra brake past neutral, personally. Check your leaders when you find these adjustments, but don't make note of them. You'll be changing the adjustment, again, soon enough..... IMO.......

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#55 Kitelife

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:20 PM

Whoa, brilliant post Dave - you got it man! :)

Lots of variables. <grin>

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#56 timmyz

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:56 AM

What kind of line do you use to make leader lines? Tim

#57 SkyPuppet

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:37 AM

I use what they call bridle line, 100# (150# is fine too), and core-less is better. It's available at any major Rev dealer, and can come in a variety of colors. I'd say get at least 8 feet to do one set of handles.

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#58 Stone in Shoe Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:36 PM

I use what they call bridle line, 100# (150# is fine too), and core-less is better. It's available at any major Rev dealer, and can come in a variety of colors. I'd say get at least 8 feet to do one set of handles.


I'm curios as to why you prefer core less, I've always used cored bridle line on the theory that it is less likely to stretch. It also has the advantage of a built in wear indicator, with a black bread around a white core you know that when the white shows through its time to think about tying replacements.

Another personal preference, I use quite a thick bridle line for leaders don't know what weight it is but it's thicker and therefor stiffer than what comes on stock handles, probably twice the thickness of a 1.5 bridle.
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#59 Dayhiker

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:41 PM

What a dream, flying so much I'm wearing out heavy leaders, rock on, rock on.

May the forest be with you

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A woman & the kids, & the dogs & me"

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#60 SkyPuppet

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:50 PM

Eh, guess I should have specified my preference is core less, not that core less is best.
I like my leaders plenty flexible, might just be superstitious but I snag less when doing slack line-ry. I used to use my old bridles for my leaders, but found them too stiff with the core and doubled over. With the core less bridle line, doubled over, I've never had to equalize my leaders, and because the line is doubled over, if it breaks due to wear, only one side will go, they won't both fail together. My leaders are lasting around 400 hours before needing replacement, and the wear is pretty obvious towards the end.

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