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My leaders ... your thoughts


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#21 Kitelife

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 09:30 AM

I'd be interested to see a photo of your hands where you're in forward drive, using "iQuad settings", flying across the wind window... Better yet, video of your full range of hand motions.

What you have in the photos you just posted is my ideal "resting" or control grip on the handles, but when I load up or go forward, my thumbs often come up on top of the nubs, levering the top of the handles backward for maximum forward and minimal wrist torque... The trick with my settings, if you just try to fly forward by angling, it won't go.. If you cup the wind and flex the kite with that "kick start" (sharp pull toward the solar plexus or upper chest), it will start moving and you just maintain that inertia and flex throughout until you're ready to stop and do hovers, etc.

With this in mind, one of my tuning philosophies is basically set it up so that when my handles are angled for maximum forward (bottom of my handles nearly touching the top lines), it's the most possible forward I could ever want... Anything more (where the wind spills) is tuned out completely.

Also, if your kite is flipping a wing when you try reverse, I'd say there's still some smoothing to be done on your inputs...

A. You're just hitting the brakes a little too far.
B. You're not grading your input (ramp up/down your input gracefully).
C. You've not learned where the actual flip point is (i.e. how far you can push it).

Movements might be quick with a pro pilot, but the inputs are graded on and graded off, slowly or quickly...

No sudden X-Y movements, like from HERE to THERE without feeling the grade between positions.

John Barresi

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#22 kwmf

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 12:14 PM

Hi JB...

Thanks for the detailed reply, I'm definitely starting to gain a deeper and clearer understanding as we go back and forth with this. I hope this will help other long distance pilots also gain better insight into flying.

Having the setup rigged to relate full handle tilt directly to full forward flight was something I haven't seen mentioned before. I can see the logic and potential benefits. I like the theory and will certainly have that line of thought in mind as I compare my present settings to the shorter differential you fly.

As you can imagine, with my settings I needed to give it a pop to get going a lot of the time. Even if I change closer to your settings, that would still have been good practice. It should also mean I shouldn't struggle with your setting, so I can give them a fair comparison.

The tip flips I mentioned are most certainly influenced by lack of refinement. Both me and my girlfriend experience them on almost any of our Revs and both on the left side more often (we're right handed). We can reverse, but we tend to get it after starting and flying the reverse for a short distance.

I have new lower leaders that will allow me both my current setup as well as closer to your settings. The plan is to fly them against each other to see what differences I can observe. I have an idea in my head, but the real test will be in the flying.

I will certainly try to get you photos or video of whatever you need if you're prepared to look at it and provide your thoughts. You just want me to fly forward from window edge to edge in a horizontal line and get pics of my hands part way through?

For video of complete hand motion, what would you like me to do?
I'm assuming hover in 4 major orientations, hover to forward, hover to reverse ... Anything else?

Regards, Steven

#23 Kitelife

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 01:01 PM

[quote name='kwmf' date='25 September 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1285445653' post='73542']
Thanks for the detailed reply, I'm definitely starting to gain a deeper and clearer understanding as we go back and forth with this. I hope this will help other long distance pilots also gain better insight into flying.
[/quote]
Aye, I've pinned this topic, it's a good one.

Having the setup rigged to relate full handle tilt directly to full forward flight was something I haven't seen mentioned before. I can see the logic and potential benefits. I like the theory and will certainly have that line of thought in mind as I compare my present settings to the shorter differential you fly.
[/quote]
One of the advantages to this technique is, as an example, that I can put my index fingers at the very top of the handles and yank as hard as I want, giving the maximum forward I would ever want, without fear of luffing the sail or pulling the leading edge out toward me (unintentional 3D pull).

[quote]The tip flips I mentioned are most certainly influenced by lack of refinement. Both me and my girlfriend experience them on almost any of our Revs and both on the left side more often (we're right handed). We can reverse, but we tend to get it after starting and flying the reverse for a short distance. [/quote]
The other aspect of reverse flight, is that it actually generates more sail pressure than forward does... With this in mind, you should also be aware, it takes a second to do so... Initiate your reverse like a hover moving backwards, and ramp up the back line pressure gradually as the kite picks up speed, don't do it all at once.

As you get better, the ramp up process becomes quicker (invisible) and more fluid.

[quote]I will certainly try to get you photos or video of whatever you need if you're prepared to look at it and provide your thoughts. You just want me to fly forward from window edge to edge in a horizontal line and get pics of my hands part way through?

For video of complete hand motion, what would you like me to do?

I'm assuming hover in 4 major orientations, hover to forward, hover to reverse ... Anything else?
[/quote]
I'd say, give a full 2 minute video of you doing pretty much your whole range of skills, especially problem areas, at least twice each, in light wind.

Once you've got the video, just stick it on YouTube and use the media tag to embed it here for discussion. ;)

John Barresi

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#24 bartman

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 01:44 PM

I'd like to see JB's hands and handles on "full forward" if you have a photo John.

I have horrible problems with flips in reverse and reversing up the window even when I try to ramp it.

Bart

#25 Kitelife

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 09:03 PM

Here are the best examples I have at the moment, no photo, just this video from Buenos Aires in 2006...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYuHmgyE2nw"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=bYuHmgyE2nw[/url] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEzcWlpmZOY"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=iEzcWlpmZOY[/url]

Technique has changed slightly since then, but the essentials are there.

John Barresi

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#26 bartman

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 09:21 PM

I think you have more flexibility in your wrists than I do! I can't lay the handles almost flat! I know I cannot launch your kite with your regular set up though.

Bart

#27 kwmf

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 10:21 PM

@JB
I'll see what I can do regarding the video. If I get some flying in today it may be on my own. Even if I can't get video, I can still fly the new leaders with your longer knot vs my shorter one and report back on how it went.

I haven't really noticed the sail pressure different in reverse on my B, but its very noticeable on my indoor. I fly the indoor rev on the same handles on the very end top knot and outer lower knot with the lines attached to the outer knot on the kites top leader and the inner (closer to the kite) knot on the bottom. Reverse flight has REALLy felt heavy, like you're dragging it through mud with the occasional run that felt effortless. Watty told me I was probably over controlling the reverse and when I eased up it didn't feel as bad. I'm still working on it, but I can feel a huge difference in the sail loading there.


@Bart
I'm no JB, but I do have some understanding of the human structure and I have taken a long time kite owner who's husband can fly a rev from being unable to launch to launching no problem in under 5 minutes.

Structurally, the tighter you grip or make a fist, the more the muscles and tendons lock up and eliminate wrist flexibility. That means the death grip everyone talks about will kill off that flexibility, which is why everyone says to relax the grip.

Secondly, even with and open hand and relaxed fingers, the wrist doesn't flex THAT far in a straight up/down orientation (as you hold handles) ... Maybe 30 degrees as I check my own hand in the mirror.

If, however, your index finger stays closed around a handle and you allow each finger down to progressively be a bit more open than the next (try it now without a handle) you will see that with the wrist cocked back to full lock, that the line your fingers make is almost a horizontal line.

Finally, and this one is minor IMO, if you have the lower part of the handles SLIGHTLY out (thumbs in) as you do this you will have a slight rotation in the wrist that gives you a little more flex and keeps your bottoms clear of your tops.

The most important one to me is the fingers. As you pop back, keep the index finger wrapped and let the rest of the fingers open up enough to let the bottoms point as far forward as they need for the setup. Since your brain can only hold a single conscious thought at a time you either need to think tops back or bottoms forward ... Whichever works for you.

Steven

#28 big bri

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 11:29 PM

My only advice

Watchout for the cotton on the slk and get the young Lady on four lines asap.

BRIAN...



#29 kwmf

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 11:36 PM

Watchout for the cotton on the slk and get the young Lady on four lines asap.


Already well scouted my friend ... I got enough control on the Rev to stay safe on that one.

She's a 6 year old with a shorter attention span than even her mother ... So that would be 30 seconds at best. If it doesn't work properly for her in that time she's not interested.

Dual lines haven't worked for her yet and neither have quads, so that Prism Parafoil was my choice for a kite that flies itself and has enough movement to keep her interested and thiink she's flying it :)

#30 big bri

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 12:14 AM

LOL,My dauhter let over a 1000ft of line out last time we flew together.

Lay on our back in the grass on a luvly sunny day.Taking turns getting the kite back into our Atmospher againPosted Image.

btw,make sure the leades dont stretch.Use a good quality Bridle line or line even.I betcha know already,but always worth a mention. .

Good Times

BRIAN...

#31 kwmf

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 11:21 AM

Mini report back...

I got about 45 minutes on the handles today with my new lower leaders that allow me to flip between my old setting (within 0.25 inch) and a longer setting more along the lines of that used by the iQuad crew.

I flew 1 knot back from my friday fly (the closer in of my 2 normal knots but still iQuad range from what I can tell) and alternated back and forth between the 2 lower knots. The setup was once again a full vent B series with 4 wrap frame and 80' of 90# LPG ... exactly the same as last time and the previous pictures. The wind was strong enough at times to get some good flex going in the 4 wrap (nothing scary to make me worry about the frame) and other times low enough to make the setup very slow and not really keen to stay up.

The biggest difference I noticed when on the longer lower knot (iQuad style) was that I was REALLY able to lean on the brake lines by comparison without any sign of a tip wanting to flip over. My normal setting flew reverse as well, but didn't allow me to lean on it as hard - it just required a more refined touch.

I tried as much as possible to get a feel for the pressure and lift by hovering over a tree in the distance on both settings, but the changes in wind conditions made it hard to guage. I think I could feel a bit of a difference, but that could just be my expectations tricking my brain ... I will have to wait for more consistant conditions to try it out. I may even have my girlfriend change the setting behind my back and fly it without looking so that I'm judging it on pure feel.

I don't think I recall any lack of forward speed either, but again this was hard to tell with the wind conditions. I think a full sail in some lower winds will be more revealing that the vented in strong and fluctuating winds.

I had no problem flying the rev or doing any any of my limited skills on either setting, but the longer lower felt easier because it didn't require me to be AS refined as the less aggressive differential.

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#32 stroke survivor

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 01:29 PM

Well sir, you are trying something and finding out what you like!! :kid_devlish: I like the idea of the blind test, to see if you can really feel a difference! Like was said earlier, picking up someone elses handles reinforces your own likes or dislikes!! I know that is out where you are, but have fun trying new things!!:)

Edited by stroke victim, 26 September 2010 - 10:46 PM.

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#33 Mike

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 07:36 AM

Just to be clear:
It doesn't matter how long your bottom leaders are. It doesn't matter how long your top leaders are.
What matters, is the difference in length between the top and bottom leaders.

Choose the knots you mostly fly on.
1. Measure the distance from the handle to the knot on the top leader.
2. Measure the distance from the handle to the knot on bottom leader.
Subtract: #1 - #2.
That's how much brake you're using.

I found this diagram I had posted a few years back on the IKE forum. It's another way to measure your brake.
Posted Image

Another helpful hint. If you have the standard Rev handles, without knotted leaders, you can re-do them. Remove the top leader and untie it so that you have a long line instead of a looped line. You can tie knots and attach the leader without it being looped & larks-headed. Another old diagram from IKE:
Posted Image

We've being using leaders like that on 180GO! for years without a problem. Here's our leaders: (sorry for the over-sized photo, it's what was already online)
Posted Image


I usually fly on the last knot or second to last knot on the top leader, and the last knot on the bottom leader.
Depending on the flyer, I'll use the other knots when teaching a newbie or converting them from the "no-brake" to "brake" way of flying.
Mike Kory:
Posted Image and Posted Image

#34 Mike

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

The biggest difference I noticed when on the longer lower knot (iQuad style) was that I was REALLY able to lean on the brake lines by comparison without any sign of a tip wanting to flip over. My normal setting flew reverse as well, but didn't allow me to lean on it as hard - it just required a more refined touch.


This makes sense. More break = more reverse. When you had the setup with less differential = less brake = less reverse, you have to put more input to make the kite fly in reverse.

When learning, the most common problem is putting too much input (that is pushing your thumbs too far forward) when flying in reverse. That will cause the wing to flip. Also, the kite wont go as fast in reverse as it does in forward drive. Trying to push the kite to go faster in reverse will cause the wing to flip. As you get more comfortable flying in reverse try increasing the differential to add more brake and allow more subtle control.

That's not the only way to fly though. I've seen really good fliers who don't use much brake, but use more input to control the kite.

I like flying with more brake because I feel more in control. Flying forward with a Rev isn't a problem, it does that easily. I want to be able to stop or back up on a dime. Especially if I'm playing with the crowd and dancing the kite around kids. If a gust of wind hits, and in the Midwest of the USA the wind is always uneven, my kite should absolutely not jump forward. I need to be able to correct for the gust quickly and with little effort. The same goes for team flying, I don't want a gust to smack me into another kite. Though, actually, that can be fun sometimes :)
Mike Kory:
Posted Image and Posted Image

#35 kwmf

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 11:50 PM

Hi there

I totally agree about speaking of a differential and not a leader length, but I find practically nobody does. While everyone says there is no right way, I have to believe that there is a good base differential range to be had and that personal preferences branch off from there. There may be a good base differential based on who's flying you like and want to emulate in your own flying as well, but personal style can only (to my mind anyway) come from using a chosen specific and then adjusting from there based on what you want.


I was flying my indoor rev again last night and found myself more aware of using the handles to adjust the angle of attack on the kite. This shows up for me the most when I am going for a slow/gentle up and over and I get almost directly overhead but just short of the downward leg of the move. Usually at this stage the kite will hang there for a bit before starting to fall backwards. It's hard for me to explain the position, but usually when I just miss what I am going for, giving the powers doesn't work. What I do is, while the kite is kinda floating/hanging up there, use the handles to adjust the angle of attack and drop the nose down so that gravity will do the rest for me.

Now my indoor flying is not the point here, my point is that I am using the handles to adjust the angle of attack of the kite. This combined with something else I've been thinking about regarding this thread.

With regards to pure sail pressure, the different differential will lead to a different angle of attack which would change the height in the window for maximum sail pressure. Unless you are changing the angle of attack with the handles, then surely the differential merely changes the height of maximum sail pressure. If you are changing the angle with the handles, then surely the differential does not matter?

I know it's not as simple as that since adjusting the differential will also have an impact on how much line tension sits, by default, on the top vs bottom lines. It will also adjust the default hand position at various heights which will affect what range of motion you have to work with in adjusting the AoA on the kite.

All of this comes back to the answer of "there is no one true way" and "try everything" and "use the force luke" Posted Image

At the end, I think that some specific differentials are needed for beginners to base themselves from and then adjust from there as their preferences and style develop.

See what happens when I have to work in an office and can't go out flying .... I start to pull a Bart and think about stuff Posted Image

#36 bartman

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 08:33 AM

See what happens when I have to work in an office and can't go out flying .... I start to pull a Bart and think about stuff Posted Image


I am that you ended it this way because now I can say, YOU ARE OVER THINKING THIS - STOP THINKING, MORE FLYING!

Now, if you know me at all you know I have this very same problem so for me to say this has to say something about both of us!

I can't believe it has come around to me saying something that has been said to me so many times before.... weird.

That said, I played around with the brake on the weekend during the tyhoon flying and decided that when you can use all the brake and want to add shoe laces on top of that it is probably too windy to fiddle in the first place. I'll experiment again under better conditions. I would like to use a bit more brake in our gusts here to try and get those forward leaps under better control.

I do find, however, that since I already over control reverse with a modest amount of brake it is really over controlled with a lot of brake and probably more dangerous to the kite and others that way than finding a balance.

Now you've got me thinking....Posted Image

Bart

#37 stroke survivor

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:23 AM

OH NO!!! Bartman - I can smell the the wood burning!!!:kid_smartass:

Edited by stroke victim, 29 September 2010 - 09:23 AM.

wayne from portland
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#38 kwmf

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 08:36 AM

Quick update .... my girlfriend and I both flew today on the longer lowers. Wind was from 7-14mph, full vent B-series with 3 wrap frame and 80' of 90# LPG.

I didn't get any video, but neither of us had any sign of tip flips and were both flying everything we normally fly without any problems. I actually didn't tell her about the difference in setup for a while - just let her fly and asked how it felt. So far she is prefering the new setup.

Steven

#39 stroke survivor

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 12:21 PM

So - the blind test is working - EH!!! :kid_content: Next it'll be your turn!!

wayne from portland
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#40 bartman

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:21 AM

The result of my experimenting this past weekend.

I left the top lines out 10" which was the furthest I could go on my leaders.

The bottoms were out the full amount on the stock bottom leaders, so, what is that? 1.5 or 2 inches let's say.

That made my differential 8 to 8.5 inches which is a lot for me. I would probably have it around 7 inches "normally".

The wind was gusty as usual, but not severe. Maybe 15-20 kph with a gust thrown in here and there just to keep me honest. I used my mid-vent pro (the first kite I pick to try any given day) and 3 wraps.

To get it off the ground LE up I neeed a quick tug at the minimum and sometimes a step back.

Upward hovers I could manage if I pulled the tops back as far as I could (almost horizontal to the bottom lines) and added the occassional gentle pull if things started feeling too light on the end.

Inverted, as you would suspect, was not much of an issue.

I've never been able to fly or fly very well with this much brake, but I've never tried to pull the tops horizontal to the bottoms either. To my amazement I flew quite well although reverse was about 10 times more twitchy and sensitive than "normal" for me. I've always had twitchy reverse issues so no surprise that with all this brake they were multiplied. I am fully aware my reverse issues are all control related. I'm sure I move things an inch when an 1/8 of an inch would be just fine. Posted Image

My thinking now. Thanks Steve, I need more to think about, is to go with as much brake as I can possibly add until I regain, or get, reverse control then dial it back to a less severe differential and, hopefully, see even more reverse control as a result of the exercise.

The more brake/sail pressure thing has always been somewhat elusive to me so perhaps some exaggerated exercises like this will finally sort it out. I've been bugging Paul to increase his brake as well and experiment so when we can fly together again we can see if we have gained some control for our team move attempts.

Bart




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