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#1 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 09:40 AM

One of the perks of my new job is use of an amazing recreation facility. Today I flew my indoor there for the first time to test the effect of the ventilation system, which, inspite of being nice and cool in there, was almost unnoticable. I'm psyched. The facilities manager however was a bit unsure. He didn't stop me, but he was not really comfortable. I explained that unlike a basketball my kite would never fly uncontrolled off the court into a window or a spectator. I also offered to check in with him or his proxy before flying to be sure they felt there were few enough people in the gym. He's going to discuss it with his bosses, and I would like to be able to supply him with more info. Does anybody have perhaps insurance stats showing how safe this is, or know of publications supporting him letting me use the facility? What else should I tell him, and how should I word it?

Thanks
Scott A Koenig
Founding member: Tennessee Wind Militia
"We muster to fly at a moment's notice"

#2 mdilucca

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 09:54 AM

Hey Scott, show them some of Connor's videos :kid_smartass: that will do :w00t: :w00t:

Cheers
Mario

Cheers

Mario

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#3 REVflyer

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:56 AM

Scott,
offer to stage an event involving the community, they'd only need to cover the cost of sanctioning (which get's 'em a free liability insurance policy!).

We fly indoors inside the National Air & space museum! We're allowed to hit the priceless displays too, even hanging our kites on them until ladders are called-in, it is acceptable. we are one of their favorite attractions during the entire year. Do you think they gave this permission without knowing the risks first, in fact there are only risks if people (spectators) aren't restrained. Show 'em a copy of the spring issue AKA Magazine. I can possibly get you a telephone reference if they want to call and independently confirm these statements. Weider might even have some video to share, it's probably of him though HA! < Hi'ya bud! >

#4 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 07:10 AM

Thanks for the advice given so far. Please keep it coming.

I'm thinking that a set of guidlines for facilities managers to follow in regards to indoor kiteflying would be a helpful tool for accessing new spaces. In other words, I would like to write the rules that they would use to govern indoor flying in their space. I'll throw out some ideas here to start with. Post your ideas or critiques of ideas already posted. When we have something workable I will compile a draft and solicit further input from other groups, like AKA, sport kite leagues and indoor event organizers. Eventually I hope to have a set of guidlines endorsed by as many major kite flying entities as possible made available for anybody to bring to his or her local person when proposing indoor flying where it hasn't been done before.

Here goes: All rule negotiable with individual facility managers

1. Only kites designed for indoor use are permitted

2. Line length for sport or fighter kites is limited to 12' (measured from handle to last kite in case of flying stacks) or shorter if dictated by limited ceiling height.
2a. line length for glider type kites is limited 25'

3. kite flying may not prohibit the intended use of the space unless scheduled ahead of time with the management. [In other words, if the gym is meant for basketball there should always be at least one available hoop not counting the court you are flying on]

4. appropriate footwear is required
Scott A Koenig
Founding member: Tennessee Wind Militia
"We muster to fly at a moment's notice"

#5 Watty

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 10:39 AM

Thanks for the advice given so far. Please keep it coming.

I'm thinking that a set of guidlines for facilities managers to follow in regards to indoor kiteflying would be a helpful tool for accessing new spaces. In other words, I would like to write the rules that they would use to govern indoor flying in their space. I'll throw out some ideas here to start with. Post your ideas or critiques of ideas already posted. When we have something workable I will compile a draft and solicit further input from other groups, like AKA, sport kite leagues and indoor event organizers. Eventually I hope to have a set of guidlines endorsed by as many major kite flying entities as possible made available for anybody to bring to his or her local person when proposing indoor flying where it hasn't been done before.

Here goes: All rule negotiable with individual facility managers

1. Only kites designed for indoor use are permitted

2. Line length for sport or fighter kites is limited to 12' (measured from handle to last kite in case of flying stacks) or shorter if dictated by limited ceiling height.
2a. line length for glider type kites is limited 25'

3. kite flying may not prohibit the intended use of the space unless scheduled ahead of time with the management. [In other words, if the gym is meant for basketball there should always be at least one available hoop not counting the court you are flying on]

4. appropriate footwear is required


Well...... I think I've broken every rule there except for number 3.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#6 Dean750

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 11:23 AM

I really hope it works out for you.
The intended use rule is the one rule I follow religiously. Whether I'm flying in the basketball colisium, the indoor practice facility (football) or within the high dollar areas inside of the football stadium, keeping yourself from getting run over seems to be the concern for those who've given permission here.
For a while anyway, is there time when you'd be able to fly while the area is closed? It is nice to have the whole floor to yourself with no worries of someone else running ya down. And those who feel there may be some sticking points can see you and get used to your ability to be safe.

Hope all works out,

Dean

#7 Theresa

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 12:50 PM

Hi Scott,

Sounds like you have a great idea! I hope you are successful in getting them to understand and allow you to fly in the gym! :)

rule #1....I would suggest you not limit it to kites designed for indoor flying only.

A lot of folks use/adapt outdoor kites to indoor use. Lam flies a Rev 1.5 indoors. Dick Curran flies kites he makes for outdoors and indoors. And Paul's Skate will fly indoor and out.....just a few examples.

Go to YouTube and search for Camas Indoor. You will have a lot of examples to show them!! :)

T

#8 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 07:59 AM

2nd draft: All rules negotiable with individual facility managers

1. Only kites suited for indoor use are permitted [a rock on a string can be kept aloft, but that is NOT flying and IS dangerous]

2. Line length for sport or fighter kites is limited to 12' (measured from handle to last kite in case of flying stacks) or shorter if dictated by limited ceiling height.
2a. line length for glider type kites is limited to 25'

3. kite flying may not prohibit the intended use of the space unless scheduled ahead of time with the management. [In other words, if the gym is meant for basketball there should always be at least one available hoop not counting the court you are flying on]

4. Appropriate footwear is required [most places do not allow hard shoes or bare feet for example]




Dean,
you're spot on about the managers' concern of me getting run into, or of somebody else running into my kite and poking their own oye out. So, rule #3 may be the most important one. They were more concerned with the possibility of others wanting to try it after seeing me fly than with me posing a danger. That's what prompted me to start to write these rules.

T,
I changed "intended" to "suited". I think that accounts for a broader variety of perfectly safe and interesting kites.

Watty,
The question about the rules you've broken (and I'm sure you're in good company) is do they need to be changed to prevent you, or me, or anybody else from breaking them? If you went into the gym at your new college and they imposed these rules on you, could you fly happily or would you need to negotiate some changes?
Scott A Koenig
Founding member: Tennessee Wind Militia
"We muster to fly at a moment's notice"

#9 Watty

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 11:36 AM

Watty,
The question about the rules you've broken (and I'm sure you're in good company) is do they need to be changed to prevent you, or me, or anybody else from breaking them? If you went into the gym at your new college and they imposed these rules on you, could you fly happily or would you need to negotiate some changes?


I think I would be able to deal with it. Flying under restrictions is better than not flying at all. The one that would be the most trouble for me is the line length one. Personally, I like to make the most out of the space I am given. If room allows it, I love to fly on my 20' line set. I think there are a lot of variables to take into account to judge for a reasonable line length, and I'm not sure that one set length would work for every area. If you are in a smaller gym, 12' might be perfectly fine. If you are flying in an aircraft hanger or something, those 12 foot lines will suddenly feel very puny.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#10 monkey

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:40 AM

5. Leave your pyro effects at home.

:D
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#11 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 08:12 AM

OK, so how can #2 be reworded to account for variable size spaces? Is there a formula like, [maximum Line length = 1/2 the shortest distance across the alloted flying space] ? If there is a formula would it also apply to glider type kites?

Monkey,
I will be sure to add "no pyro" to the next draft.
Scott A Koenig
Founding member: Tennessee Wind Militia
"We muster to fly at a moment's notice"

#12 Watty

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 09:10 AM

OK, so how can #2 be reworded to account for variable size spaces? Is there a formula like, [maximum Line length = 1/2 the shortest distance across the alloted flying space] ? If there is a formula would it also apply to glider type kites?


Maybe the best way of deciding would be that the lines should be short enough that the kite can fly directly up and over without hitting the ceiling, or anything directly connected to the ceiling.

It could be worded like
"Lines measure from handles to kite must be restrained to 8 feet shorter than the height of the ceiling" or something like that. The amount shorter than the ceiling would take into account the height of a person.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#13 melnsct

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 04:37 PM

Maybe the best way of deciding would be that the lines should be short enough that the kite can fly directly up and over without hitting the ceiling, or anything directly connected to the ceiling.

It could be worded like
"Lines measure from handles to kite must be restrained to 8 feet shorter than the height of the ceiling" or something like that. The amount shorter than the ceiling would take into account the height of a person.



I like that, Watty!!!
It's exactly what I've been trying to tell him but couldn't ffind the right wording!!
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Melanie in Tennessee

#14 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:50 AM

3rd draft: All rules negotiable with individual facility managers

1. Only kites suited for indoor use are permitted [a rock on a string can be kept aloft, but that is NOT flying and IS dangerous]

2. line length (measured from handle to last kite in case of flying stacks) should be short enough to keep the kite inside a designated flying area and below the ceiling or any fixtures hanging from the ceiling.

3. kite flying may not prohibit the intended use of the space unless scheduled ahead of time with the management. [In other words, if the gym is meant for basketball there should always be at least one available hoop not counting the court you are flying on]

4. Appropriate footwear is required [most places do not allow hard shoes or bare feet for example]

5. Pyro effects may only be used if supervised by David Hathaway
Scott A Koenig
Founding member: Tennessee Wind Militia
"We muster to fly at a moment's notice"

#15 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 11:11 AM

at the suggestion of the manager of my local health comlplex:

5. Care should be taken to avoid contact between kites and: walls, railings, installed sporting equipment such as back boards, hoops, or nets, etc unless such contact is first cleared with the management.


Scott A Koenig
Founding member: Tennessee Wind Militia
"We muster to fly at a moment's notice"

#16 John F

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 03:38 PM

at the suggestion of the manager of my local health comlplex:

5. Care should be taken to avoid contact between kites and: walls, railings, installed sporting equipment such as back boards, hoops, or nets, etc unless such contact is first cleared with the management.



Scott
I think the only damage that could be done would be to the overhead electrical fixtures.

I think there could be a nice video put together on this. It would be be straightforward and would show kites as a legitimate use of a rec facillity. Kiting is a sport the same way cheerleading now is and definately in a similar category as floor exercises in gymnastics.

There is an excellent benefit to the cardio system in kite flying.

I will work on a video when I return home.

John

#17 mousieo

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 06:05 PM

5. Leave your pyro effects at home.

:D



Darn it.. We had plans.... humpffffffffff lol

#18 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 07:13 PM

Scott
I think the only damage that could be done would be to the overhead electrical fixtures.

I think there could be a nice video put together on this. It would be be straightforward and would show kites as a legitimate use of a rec facillity. Kiting is a sport the same way cheerleading now is and definately in a similar category as floor exercises in gymnastics.

There is an excellent benefit to the cardio system in kite flying.

I will work on a video when I return home.

John


Great idea about the video. Can't wait to see what you come up with. Since my goal here is to make it easier to approach new venues, perhaps some narration would be in order. Also, it would be great to see a wide variety of different indoor kites. The one thing I ask, if you are thinking of the video as supplemental to introducing indoor flying to people in charge of potential venues, would be that the images in the video all abide by the rules we are laying down so far.

By the way, I agreee that the likelyhood of damging a backboard with a kite is pretty darn slim but that was one of the few stipulations put on me in this new space, so, I thought other managers might feel the same way.
Scott A Koenig
Founding member: Tennessee Wind Militia
"We muster to fly at a moment's notice"




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