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#1 FLY TILL YOU DIE

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:19 PM

Finally back home from WSIKF, probably the best I've been to yet, but alas tragedy strikes again, 2 years ago at KITE PARTY my lines were cut by an Indian guy with a fighter kite flying where he wasn't suppose to be. Sorry and a smile dosen't seem adequate. This time at WSIKF right after the 56 megafly record "Watty"& I were fast dogfighting (which we have done in the past). We were into it about 5-10 minutes when a kite to my right took off backed up behind us and then came down on "watty's left, my line being cut on it's way down. Again sorry and a smile as he wound up his uncut lines & wandered off. Had it not been for "Watty" loaning me a spare set of his I would'nt have been in the 64 kite Megafly the next day. T. was sold out! Is this proper kite flyer behavior ( even Rev Kite flyer behavior?) Would much rather spend $70.00 on kites or race rods or "kite stakes". If I'm out of line blast me, but I would like to hear what the consensus is. Thanks for letting me MIDVENT!


John


PS Thanks again Watty for not hesitating to help!!




#2 Kitelife

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:26 PM

If it had been Watty who cut your lines in the midst of play and dogfighting, it would fall under "one of those things" with no fault to either.

In the event of a flier outside that exchange dropping in (especially from behind you on the field), it would seem appropriate for them to wander up and at least open the door for discussion with an apology... From there, it's a matter of communication and resolution... Bottom line, sounds like the other flier was "outside your circle" so to speak, and wasn't watching where they were flying.

May be more to it, but that's my take from what you've said here.

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#3 HedgeWarden

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 06:00 PM

Was he/she aware that they had cut your lines?

I still go wild-flight at times, and might cause such damage. Accident. And if I am clueless, I would not be able to respond appropriately.

So, be sure the perp knows the damage he/she caused. If he/she is a gentleman/lady, they should be willing to compensate. If not, it is up to you to decide how far you want to escalate the conflict. Personally, since I make my own line sets, the damage to one or two lines would not be worth raising a big stink. I would just cry "Oh man, you sliced my lines, dude!!", and leave it up to the perp to respond to the best of their ability.

Fair winds,
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#4 BillLamm

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:19 AM

Was he/she aware that they had cut your lines?

I still go wild-flight at times, and might cause such damage. Accident. And if I am clueless, I would not be able to respond appropriately.

So, be sure the perp knows the damage he/she caused. If he/she is a gentleman/lady, they should be willing to compensate. If not, it is up to you to decide how far you want to escalate the conflict. Personally, since I make my own line sets, the damage to one or two lines would not be worth raising a big stink. I would just cry "Oh man, you sliced my lines, dude!!", and leave it up to the perp to respond to the best of their ability.

Fair winds,
-Howard



I think I would respond about the same if my lines were cut.. putting my self in the other persons shoes... if I heard that I would try and offer more than a sorry,,, we all fly with the risk of damage to our gear... so if I was the victim and compensation was offered I would probably only take a portion of the full cost..

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#5 Jim Foster

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:52 AM

Mountain House Festival, 2009, Wind was up, Lynn and I were flying our "basket weave" kites. A flier most of us know asked if he could fly Lynn's kite. "Sure, give it a go". He had only been in the air a minute or so when off to one side came a single line kite. He didn't see that line and two of Lynn's lines got cut. The line set was well over a year old, starting to show much wear. He felt very bad, We told him not to worry. Stuff happens. It's OK. When we got home I made up two more lines.

At Kite Party this year, that flier walked across the field and gave Lynn a new line set. We told him that it was OK. He should keep that set for himself. Well, he would have none of that, and when I had my kite in the air, and couldn't defend myself, he shoved the set in my pocket.

Thank you George. You are welcome to fly with us, or fly our kites anytime.

The flier this thread is about not only book one of John's lines, but also one of our friend Fran Wilson's lines, without offering to make it right.

The door is still open. You know who you are, walk through it.
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#6 Kitelife

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 08:43 AM

I think everyone is of the same sentiment, but just to reinforce... Indeed, let's keep it cordial, clear and private as it's been thus far.

Great topic, others will no doubt gain from reading it, on both sides of the fence. :)

John Barresi

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#7 LS Kite Stakes

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:10 AM

Since I have been called out, I am "the other flier." I tried to stay out of this publicly, but cannot any more.


I have offered (in PM) to replace John's lineset That was cut with a lightly used lineset of my own. I have not received a reply yet.

I was not aware of Frans lineset, nor do I know when or where it happened. I guess I will have to give up my only other 120' line set to him to make that right.

I am unemployed (got layed off again the day before I went to WSIKF)and cannot afford to buy new linesets for those that I am responsible for damaging, or that is what I would do.



I am very sorry about the damaged equipment and lines, I will fly by my self from now on.
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#8 Dean750

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 11:06 AM

Since I have been called out, I am "the other flier." I tried to stay out of this publicly, but cannot any more.

I am unemployed (got layed off again the day before I went to WSIKF)and cannot afford to buy new linesets for those that I am responsible for damaging, or that is what I would do.

I am very sorry about the damaged equipment and lines, I will fly by my self from now on.



Relax Walt. As it was said, "stuff happens." I think being in the situation where it's your only line set and you can't get ahold of another set unless lent, meaning "there goes the festival and fun" may of added to some frustration for those involved.

I understand your feeling of wanting to just stay away.
Last year at WSIKF, the Friday I left due to physical and some mental problems, you were in on the 15 or what ever it was team fly that Mr. Weider was leading as was I. On the follow we came down the left side of the window and turned a 90 to the right and to the other edge setting up for something. (don't remember much past that.) Being in the middle of the pack I noticed that with each kite turning at the bottom, each was turning later and lowwer. And when it came for my turn to make the turn I tried to hesitate and turn a little early because Amy Doran and Paul (KiteCowboy) were huddled up untangling lines DIRECTLY under our downward line. Because I hesitated and didn't know how or even try to let those behind me know what I was doing, pretty much every kite behind me in the line slammed into the back of me forcing me to the ground. Right exactly where I was trying to avoid for saftey and decency reasons. My kite didn't miss hitting either Amy or Paul in the head by much if anything at all and did slam down on they're kites and lines they were trying to untangle. (We were flying full vents with plenty of wind, not std's in light wind) Since they were both looking down at the time and my kite was the only one that hit the ground (in the heat of the moment) I was yelled at and I still wonder if that may have been were some may have thought I shouldn't have been in with the group. In fact, I was yelled at and given dirty looks on more than one occasion that Friday. Posted Image

I did stay away. Other than the New Years fun fly in Portland with JB and company I hadn't attended a single event leading up to WSIKF this year remembering what happend and how embarrassed I have been since then. DON'T do that to yourself or us Walt. Think of it this way...

Some times it takes an event to get thoughts going. As far as I know, there aren't writen rules or guidelines on ettiquette and maybe we all should come together and set some up.

Just a thought, last year to fly on the field we had to sign something that covered us by the AKA event insurance. Property damge is included in that coverage. Would a line set be covered by that? Just a thought.

Hope to see you soon Walt. Keep your head up and use this as a learning experience. A smile and apology is a start, but don't let it rest at that.

Love ya man,

Dean

#9 FLY TILL YOU DIE

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:12 PM

Just now able to get back on the computer, I am good as far as lines. Watty insisted I keep the lines he loaned me. I didn't intend for anyone to drop out of kiting so don't even think about it, I know if I couldn't fly with others I would probably drop out. I knew about Frans lines but did not know the details. I agree with JB if Watty or I had damaged our kites or lines we could accept that as part of the game. Mostly I was frustrated by the same problem happening again! If anything this event will make us all think more about the responsibility of our actions.

Cheers John

Edited by FLY TILL YOU DIE, 01 September 2010 - 05:31 AM.


#10 bartman

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:34 PM

I am curious how Rev lines can cut other Rev lines. With all the wrapping that goes on with team stuff what is that happens to make a cut? I'd want to know so I can avoid any similar situation in the future.

And Walt, don't be going flying by yourself. I have to do that 95% of the time here and it's a killer so just stay involved okay?

Bart

#11 Kitelife

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:36 PM

Even more so for me, one of my personal pet peeves... Being aware of folks flying under you.

That's one of the reasons I was so emphatic about lining up in rows at WSIKF, even if we weren't flying team.

If fliers are set up staggered (one flier more than 15-20 feet in front of or behind the other), you have two options:

1. WATCH VERY CLOSELY underneath/above your kite (this may not be enough as others might not be looking).
2. Or ideally, move back/forward to line up with everyone else, then all the kites are in the same dimension of sky.

I am *very* used to a full window awareness all the time, I know who is where 99.9% of the time... Most fliers, this is simply not the case... So, prevention through precaution and process... Line 'em up boys and girls, or know your space resolutely, pure and simple.

There are a handful of fliers on this continent who habitually find themselves positioned inappropriately on the field, regularly getting caught in lines underneath... Who isn't important, but this is a great opportunity to see if you're "flying by the rules" and ensuring you're working with the grain, not against it.

Remember, this doesn't mean walk and talk in a line, assimilation or anything else... It just means if you're sharing space, stay sharp and aware... Otherwise, take it outside the shared airspace. ;)

You don't see golfers standing on the course at a driving range, they're all in a row, hitting balls... Good reason for that.

==

Right, rant/lesson done...

I continue to be pleased and proud of this group, seeing y'all working it out and encouraging each other to grow instead of doing combat. :)

John Barresi

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#12 Kitelife

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:37 PM

I am curious how Rev lines can cut other Rev lines. With all the wrapping that goes on with team stuff what is that happens to make a cut? I'd want to know so I can avoid any similar situation in the future.

In all likelihood, it was a leading edge or wing tip grazing that did the cutting... Typically, anyway.

John Barresi

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#13 LS Kite Stakes

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 08:18 PM

In all likelihood, it was a leading edge or wing tip grazing that did the cutting... Typically, anyway.


That was it, I was trying to fly over John and Watty to park my kite closer to my "camp" when I looked away for a second to step over some lines on the ground. Dumb mistake, my fault, and it cost someone else's lines. My offer is still open John, I do not want anyone pissed off at me for stupid actions on my part. That is what I get for being a newbie flier I guess. I will just stay out of the expierienced fliers way.
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#14 Jim Foster

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 08:31 PM

I am curious how Rev lines can cut other Rev lines. With all the wrapping that goes on with team stuff what is that happens to make a cut? I'd want to know so I can avoid any similar situation in the future.

Bart


A couple of years ago I cut one of Lynn's lines right at the sleeving with the end of my leading edge. I re-sleeved that line and shortened the other three.

That's how it happens. It's real quick too. No twisting, wrapping, you don't even see it coming.

Sure is a crowd pleaser as you are trying to control a Rev on only three lines. Even more fun if you are in a group. :w00t:

Edited by Jim Foster, 26 August 2010 - 08:50 PM.

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#15 Jim Foster

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 08:39 PM

I was not aware of Frans lineset, nor do I know when or where it happened. I guess I will have to give up my only other 120' line set to him to make that right.


Walt

As we said in our PMs, this was to stay private, however, you brought it here so I decided to let all know that this issue has been resolved.

You were flying in a grid of 16, number 2 in the right column, Fran and Dick Wilson were below you in 3 and 4 position. The three of you were asked to move out of that grid for more practice with one of the with Martin Linford, one of the Decorators. It was during that time that you took out Dicks line.

Due to your situation, Dick is going to call Teresa and buy a replacement line. Since the line set was only one day old, that should work. I can equalize the set if needed.

You are off the hook my friend. Hope you can find work soon.

Jim

Edited by Jim Foster, 26 August 2010 - 08:55 PM.

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#16 kitecowboy

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 08:59 PM

hey Dean i sure hope none of those dirty looks were from me, i'm sure it just startled me if anything. I fully understand if i stand in the field I'm likely to get nailed.
Cowboy, rocks in your pockets couldn't hurt.

#17 Dean750

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 01:44 AM

hey Dean i sure hope none of those dirty looks were from me, i'm sure it just startled me if anything. I fully understand if i stand in the field I'm likely to get nailed.



Nope, you had that "what just happened" look on your face. I understood the frustration of the situation, thats why I said in the heat of the moment. It was just an example of how crap can happen to anyone at any time. I thought I was being aware of my surroundings like JB is talking about above. My hesitation before making my turn early to avoid getting too close to you two is what got me ass ended. So while I was aware of you two on the ground I forgot about the number of kites following me. Posted Image So I was only maybe aware of 75% of what was going on. The rest is history. I'm better physically and mentally and look forward to kicking hiney with all ya all at the soonest time available. Posted Image

Dean

#18 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 04:24 AM

Walt, Stay in!

Bart, for future reference, any line can cut any line although some combinations greatly scue the odds in one direction or another. When lines are hard crossed (at or close to a 90 degree angle) the possibility is present for one line to pull while the other stays relatively stationary. Thus, a large amount of friction is generated on a small portion of the stationary line. It's the heat that cuts the line. LPG does not tend to generate much friction which is why we can do what we do, but it is plenty susceptible to being cut by lines that do generate friction. Cheap cotton line like that found on many dime store kites not only generates friction, but being a natural fiber is less effected by the heat. That fact, combined with the novice tendency to pull when his or her lines cross another's is why there are so many stories about Dora the Explorer, or Spider Man, cutting poeple's lines.

Moral of the story:
When lines cross 1) stay calm, 2) move towards the other flyer and hopefully they towards you, 3) usually the ends of the lines can be easily manipulated to sort out the mess, 4) exchange cordial goodbyes and words of encouragement, 5) go happily back to what you were doing.
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#19 Dean750

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 11:12 AM

It's funny afterwards, well... now anyway. Thinking back to the iQuad team clinic at Kite Hinge. The look of peoples faces and the way the pitch of their voices change when the newbie to team flying starts pumping the kite when we all have a full wrap in the lines. Posted Image Most of the pitch changes went up with worried excitement. Took a while to get broke of the habit of pumping. Posted Image The BOOMing voice of JB, "DEAN, stop pumping!!! If you don't cut our lines your creating turbulance for everyone behind you." Oh, now I get it. Posted Image Just to make sure I got the message Steve D moved down the line immediatly to my right and on the ups he'd pump. Yep, got the message.

It's all part of learning. I'm just thankful for the patience and the willingness to drill a message into my head and then make sure they sunk it deep enough.

Dean



#20 bartman

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 11:34 AM

Ah, that is an important point as well. I really needed to pay attention not pump when I got into the real wraps. Since real wraps were new to me (had never done them ever and they still scare me and with me, myself and I being the only flyers here it is not something I think about) that took a major effort when I felt I had no tension left and nothing to feel at the handles. Thankfully no accidents.

Bart




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