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Rev Indoors questions - Round 2


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#1 kwmf

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:09 AM

Hello boys and girls

Well with the soccer world cup over, I can now get back into halls and continue my journey into the world of indoor Rev. I had a great session last night (although I still only have 3-4 hours on the indoor) and my improving skill outdoors is showing in my indoor flying as well. Naturally I have more questions going through my head and I'm hoping everyone is not too busy with WSIKF to educate me. Posted Image


I was flying on 12' of 90# with the lines attached to the kite leaders at the furtherest knot from the kite for both tops and bottoms. For the first 10 minutes I flew on the indoor handles with the top line attached to the knot closest to the handles. After that I tried out my new no-snags (with my own longer leaders) and progressively let out the top lines until I went from mushy control to the responsiveness I needed. Once I got all the way out on the tops I had about an 8" differential between top and bottom and it felt as responsive as I wanted without the over response I feel on the indoor handles sometimes. I don't know if it's just in my head, but the no-snags felt much better to me - possibly due to the increased weight. I'm not sure if this will be a permanent change, but I'm going to fly it out and see.

I was a bit concerned about the change in the angle of attack caused by using the no-snags, but I've seen JB and Watty fly with regular size/bend handles so my assumption is that it does work fine. I seemed to have all the control I had on the indoor handles and it just felt better to me, so I'm going with the assumption that all is okay for now.

Probably my biggest question right now is regarding reverse flight. When I do reverse 360s it feels like I'm powering the kite through mud instead of slicing through the air like in forward flight. I've noticed in most videos that the pilot seems to move a bit faster when doing reverse flight so I am assuming that you do indeed need a bit more power and loading to get good reverse. The problem is I am the only person doing indoor here so I have no idea how different things should feel. I do recall reverse being easier the first time I flew my indoor, but I also lacked a lot of control. Every time after that, revers always felt tougher, regardless of the setup or handles.

Anyone care to comment on the use of standard profile handles vs indoor handles and/or how reverse flight should feel?

Thanks
Steven

#2 REVflyer

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 02:57 AM

You're acquiring enough skill to deviate from the factory standard, following a unique set of preferences developed thru your own practice. Welcome to the quad-head club Steven! There's no one correct path to a destination, do whatever "feels" correct to you.

Reverse is tougher, you're adding all the energy indoors and darn thing doesn't want to travel in that direction! You need more motion, either thru torso, handle movements, your arms and fingers, or even the legs.

Wanta' learn reverse control indoors?, the defining moment we all strive for is: The ability to walk forward, moving all around the enclosed area, with the kite directly overhead and it's flying in reverse the whole time!
Controlled motion, not a snappy movement, trya smooth application of power. Okay now try it again, but much more aggressive.


In the beginning learning indoor flying, the kite is to go in the opposite direction you're traveling. This keeps tension on the the lines. As you progress you'll try tougher things like an up & over inverted. You almost have to be sitting-downward forcefully as you approach the top of the arc the kite is traveling. As you practice this outrageous action it will become easier and easier. Eventually it will not look as exaggerated, it will appear just as magical as your forward flight does. This isn't going to look perfect after a weekend though! Yes, you may have to tune your equipment slightly to effect this flight direction, but you could also change your grip on the handles, grip lower equals more DOWN in the tuning.

You put in enough practice hours and the rest of indoor flying just falls into your lap.

Experiment,.... What happens if you stood on one handle while jerking the other violently? Can you catch the kite?, jump over it?, bounce it off of your hip?, squat down and allow it to fly over your head? What happens? Cool stuff is uncovered by experimenting. You might like a faster kite, that means going to smaller format. You might want all slow and graceful,... then "go big or go home" SIR!

For now keep working and let us know how you make out.

Edited by REVflyer, 18 August 2010 - 02:58 AM.


#3 kwmf

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:13 AM

I figured you'd be the first man up on this one Posted Image

Reverse is tougher, you're adding all the energy indoors and darn thing doesn't want to travel in that direction!


So what you're saying is what I'm feeling is about normal then?

I can achieve reverse 360s, it just feels like I have to power it thru mud instead of air and if I pull a little bit more on the brakes it might flick inside out. Definitely feels like it doesn't want to go that way at all and I'm just forcing it to do so.

I tried a reverse up and over for a giggle last night and only made it about 40 degrees or so.

The alternating 360s I was doing (specifically the 180 up-turn) taught me that line tension (and how you achieve it) is the absolute life blood of controlled indoor flight. For the rest of that evening my primary focus was on maintaining that tension. My arms definitely got a bit longer in their control positions so that they were ready for creating tension when more than the body was required.

With less than 5 hours total indoor time, there's still much work to be done, but I'm starting to understand it and expect some good progress to be made

#4 REVflyer

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 06:22 AM

walking a reverse 360 around the arena is easier than an "up & over", which is WAY easier than forward walking while the kite is flying backwards over your head,... see some Scott Weider's footage if you need inspiration. He's quite magical!!!

#5 kwmf

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 06:33 AM

As long as what I'm feeling from the kite is in the ball park, the skill part will be worked onPosted Image

#6 stroke survivor

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 09:00 AM

Man, after reading this, wished my hips weren't made of metal!! Can't afford to risk falling down!!! I was so interested in indoor after Penny and others put on a demo at Lincoln City, years ago!! With my new hips at least flying on the beach or a field is good again!!! Still warms me up when someone like Connor does what he does, in front of so many!!! :kid_smartass: GOOD LUCK in your adventures!!! :)

wayne from portland
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#7 kwmf

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:52 PM

Man, after reading this, wished my hips weren't made of metal!! Can't afford to risk falling down


If you can manage a brisk walk, have access to a hall and can afford an Indoor Rev then I say do it!!!

I've never been at risk of falling over or tripping, but when you're learning you certainly find yourself out of position and having to take a little run for 3 or 4 steps to recover. If you can't do that and prepared to go to ground and recover, you're still fine for learning.

Right now I am moving around way more than I have to because I haven't developed the skill needed to make it look effortless. You've seen Penny, and Connor perform (and I'm sure you've seen Scott, Watty, JB and the iQuad gang too) so it is possible to not have to move much ... Just double what you see them do to get an idea of how much you would likely move around to begin with.

You've got a 1.5 SUL don't you ... Take that inside and give it a go to see how you feel about it. I've use a 1.5 SLE with race rods indoors before so your SUL should do just fine. Whatever you feel on the 1.5, the indoor will make it much easier.

If you physical condition limits you and you just can't keep a 360 going then at least you tried. If you can keep it going, then you have another Rev in your future. :)

#8 stroke survivor

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 05:41 PM

Thanks for the encouragement!! Had a stroke that affects my perception and balance! Walking backwards for any distance feels like I'm walking into a BLACK HOLE:kid_brooding: But I've tried short lines outside and almost pulled off my first catch and throw!! 3D flying is certainly within my grasp, indoors is a little scary! :angry: But the SUL is beautiful in the light winds we have in the valley, so I'm HAPPY!!!! :)

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#9 kwmf

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 11:16 PM

Perhaps indoor is a good motivator to find a rail and rehab your senses to what walking backwards feels like now Posted Image

As long as you're having fun, fly whatever you want, however you want. I want to be able to fly anywhere, so I'm working on indoor, street, short line, long line, solo, pairs and low wind where I can. I started my kite flying with quad line power kites, so it's all coming along nicely ... it's just the precision, hand and body movement thats taking time.

With the catch the first thing I discovered is that the kite beter be going STRAIGHT up or it will continue it's course to the side when you yank those top lines. Now I will usually abort the idea if I'm not flying in a straight line on the setup.

Have at it and smile sir ...

#10 stroke survivor

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:41 AM

Steven - YOU BET!! It is so nice to be able to fly again and not be in pain all the time I'm doing it!!! Kinda working my way back to doing things that I used to do before my stroke!! :kid_cussing: But I'm finding more things now that I still can do, just need to practice them and regain some of the skills I had before!! :) Thanks for your sentiments, they just keep me motivated to constantly challenge myself!!!!

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#11 kwmf

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:13 AM

I managed to put another hour on the indoor last night ... and I do mean an hour of almost non-stop flying.

I started on the same knot settings as my last session and within 2 minutes I had shortened up on the brake lines by half an inch. Seems I may end up back on the indoor handles again (with a slight adjustment to hand position) for increased sensitivity as my skills progress.

Its all starting to come together nicely now and my hands and body are starting to maintain the tension nicely. There were times when I was doing certain things when I moved and the kite felt MASSIVELY powered up. Most times when I lost tension, it was by choice and I was setup to catch it again further in the flight path. I even found I was able to walk stable and flight controllable 360's using only 3 lines (top brake line slack) by choice and for extended periods.

I noticed my hands starting to move more like what I see in videos of other (skilled) pilots in maintaining line tension and my body is moving less. Except for when I got lazy, I kept within the confines of a basketball court the whole time. Even when I had to land and I was backing up towards a hoop I would still confidantly launch into an up and over and find my way around the obstacle. There was only 2 or 3 occasions the whole night where I had to do a throw to get going again ... I'm going to have to make a point of practicing that specifically since I'm not crashing out much anymore Posted Image


I'm really hoping JB (or Spence, Connor, someone) can bang out some indoor tutorials on basic moves and the required hand/body coordination sometime since I'm basically figuring it out on my own.

My reverse is also coming with less effort now, I'm starting to find that grove where it settles in and flies smoothly in reverse again. I was doing forward 360 to upturn and switching to reverse 360 for as long as possible to straight switch to forward so I could repeat in the opposite direction. I discovered the timing on that gives you a fairly narrow window to catch the reverse as gravity takes over and you need to have the kite orientated fairly precisely or the top wing wants to flap (or flip) as you go into the reverse.

I'm still not able to get anywhere near being in the top half of the reverse up and over, but I do try it ever now and then for a hoot. I can reverse launch and turn 1/4 or 3/4 turn to forward flight without hitting the ground, but the reverse up and over is still a long way off.

After flying for an hour (20h30 - 21h30) I went home to wash up but was so pumped from the session I just wanted to get back out there and fly some more ..... now if only I can find a hall open 24 hours a day Posted Image




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