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Top leaders out, but....


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#1 kwmf

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 02:48 AM

After flying my indoor rev for a while, which seems to have a fair bit of brake to me, I decided to suck it up and let the tops of my B out all the way. Well, I let them out as far as I could and pulled the bottoms back as far as I could with the standard B handles while still being able to launch and fly. I was either on the last or second to last knot on the top leaders.

I was definately much more comfortable than previously on that kind of setting and when it was working I could now feel the difference it makes. One thing that both me and my girlfriend experienced was a tendency for one side of the kite to flip over during reverse movements. It was usually the right hand side, but I'm putting that down to us both being right handed since the lines are equal in length.

I'm assuming that this is happening due to over control on the brakes now that the tuning has shifted so dramatically. Its probably about a 3-4" difference compared to what we flew previously. Am I right in my assumption or is there something else I should be checking as well?

#2 Kitelife

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:24 AM

More refined inputs... Doesn't sound like a problem, just a shift in handling, as you've already guessed.

The benefit to more brake is that smaller inputs are required.

Once you get a feel for it, I think you'll find the benefits. ;)

John Barresi

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#3 bartman

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:43 AM

I have the same problems with reverse over-control and wonder if I will ever have fine enough motor control to control the kite instead of the kite controlling me.

Bart

#4 Dean750

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 05:41 AM

I probably shouldn't type this as it could become a bad habit.... but, the more brake I fly with the higher on the handles I fly. In the lightest of winds I pinch the handles just under the top leader and only use the middle and ring finger on the top of the foamies for control. It's probably easier to just continue to learn the feeling you get from the tension of the lines than to break what could become a bad habit. Probably depends on the pilot though.....

DeanPosted Image

#5 Felix Mottram

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 07:35 AM

I probably shouldn't type this as it could become a bad habit.... but, the more brake I fly with the higher on the handles I fly. In the lightest of winds I pinch the handles just under the top leader and only use the middle and ring finger on the top of the foamies for control. It's probably easier to just continue to learn the feeling you get from the tension of the lines than to break what could become a bad habit. Probably depends on the pilot though.....

DeanPosted Image


In extreme you may hang the handle/line connector on your first fingertip and support the weight of the handles other wise!

I found myself 'hanging the foams' on three fingers with no 'grip' at all flying a Zen in Cervia the other day...

Fine 'motor control' can only be developed via practical experience <grins>

Felix

#6 beach

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 08:35 AM

Hmmmm very good answers and comments, myself and JB have went round and round on this subject and I agree to all the points taken but for me and me
only I've got my own style and set my bottom lines how and where what works for me.....Posted Image For this I have added to my handles the matching leaders on
the bottom..... As I said there are times where I'm all the way in on the bottom but for me what works best is all the way out on the top with my bottoms
4 knots in, is this correct no, is this wrong no, this is just my style....Posted ImageFelix your correct it's all about motor skills that you get with time but the one thing
that I stress all the time, everyone has a style and what works for you does not work for me...... BenPosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#7 Felix Mottram

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:36 AM

<snip>
Felix your correct it's all about motor skills that you get with time but the one thing
that I stress all the time, everyone has a style and what works for you does not work for me...... BenPosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Ben,

Key for me is that in order to 'team fly' it is 'probably' essential that the fliers are working with the same 'style'. <grins>

Felix

#8 Kitelife

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:12 PM

Indeed, personal style aside, there is a range of tuning that works FAR better for team flying...

Has to do with speed control, balance and response.

Individually, everyone has their own flavor. ;)

John Barresi

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#9 Dean750

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:52 PM

Yep, I've learned to slide down the handles when team flying. If for no other reason than it reminds me not to end up smackin the person next to me. Flailing just won't work on the line. Posted Image
By the way JB, finally found that spot in the tuning to get that loaded feeling like your kite fly's. Still not perfect, but definatly getting there. Posted Image

Dean

#10 beach

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 01:46 PM

Indeed, personal style aside, there is a range of tuning that works FAR better for team flying...

Has to do with speed control, balance and response.

Individually, everyone has their own flavor. ;)


John don't make me stamp my feet and whinge again, just go with it, okay,okay, you guys are correct when flying team you must all be on the same page
or very close...... BenPosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image




#11 Baloo

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:41 PM

And if you are not on the same page, at least you need to be on the same Beach. :kid_devlish:

#12 Kitelife

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 11:16 PM

And if you are not on the same page, at least you need to be on the same Beach. :kid_devlish:

How about the same bar? :)

Ben, nice perma-whinge. :P

John Barresi

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#13 david ellison

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:06 AM

Key for me is that in order to 'team fly' it is 'probably' essential that the fliers are working with the same 'style'. <grins>


:clap; :clap;
So true - recent direct experience in Cervia confirms that despite the sweetest of onshore breezes there's no substitute for getting your teammates brakes checked

;) :rolleyes: :blink:

#14 REVflyer

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 02:18 AM

I use shorter handle lengths & choke down on my handle's gripping position to fly team, but more brake than most consider appropriate is very common for me. Individually I prefer to flail, hitting your neighbors in team flying is frowned upon though!

#15 Felix Mottram

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 03:52 AM

Indeed, personal style aside, there is a range of tuning that works FAR better for team flying...

Has to do with speed control, balance and response.

Individually, everyone has their own flavor. ;)


In the Berck Mega fly I think that there was a flier who did not have enough brake on the vented 1.5 and took out a number of fliers as a result of losing control. When they flew the not vented 1.5 as in the clip JB posted, issues of control did not appear to arise. Maybe there were differences with bridle connections? <grins>

Felix

#16 Kitelife

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:55 AM

A sure visual tell of too much forward for team is when the center panel goes flat and loses it's loading, at which point you may or may not also hear that annoying rattle coming from the trailing edge... Not only does the kite start to go too fast, but the right and left sides start to fight for dominance instead of powering off the middle of the kite which makes it harder to accurately control.

John Barresi

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#17 Felix Mottram

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 10:42 AM

A sure visual tell of too much forward for team is when the center panel goes flat and loses it's loading, at which point you may or may not also hear that annoying rattle coming from the trailing edge... Not only does the kite start to go too fast, but the right and left sides start to fight for dominance instead of powering off the middle of the kite which makes it harder to accurately control.


The 'death rattle' indeed, as control goes out of the window.

In my view, for a given wind speed the kite should 'just' achieve a horizontal 'Leading Edge Up' hover with handles in full forward mode (as in bottom tips extended to the top lines). For the Mega Team the temptation is to add a little forward so as not to need to move on the ground in order to maintain the hover. I am thinking that this covers the question of handle length as well. <grins>

Felix

#18 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:42 PM

In my view, for a given wind speed the kite should 'just' achieve a horizontal 'Leading Edge Up' hover with handles in full forward mode (as in bottom tips extended to the top lines). For the Mega Team the temptation is to add a little forward so as not to need to move on the ground in order to maintain the hover. I am thinking that this covers the question of handle length as well. <grins>

Felix



I like this explanation. It offers a more consistant, unless the wind is truly too light to hold that upright hover, measurement for handle tuning. Adjusting brakes based ones ability to launch the kite is great for learning to fly with more reverse in your setup, but has the potential to leave a good deal of difference in tuning from flyer to flyer in the line. For example, I am over a foot taller than my daughter and have long arms to boot. I can launch without moving my feet at all in conditions that require her (with identical tuning) to take 3 or 4 steps back. If we used the launch as our guide she would end up out of control with too much forward.
Scott A Koenig
Founding member: Tennessee Wind Militia
"We muster to fly at a moment's notice"

#19 Felix Mottram

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 11:44 AM

I like this explanation. It offers a more consistant, unless the wind is truly too light to hold that upright hover, measurement for handle tuning. Adjusting brakes based ones ability to launch the kite is great for learning to fly with more reverse in your setup, but has the potential to leave a good deal of difference in tuning from flyer to flyer in the line. For example, I am over a foot taller than my daughter and have long arms to boot. I can launch without moving my feet at all in conditions that require her (with identical tuning) to take 3 or 4 steps back. If we used the launch as our guide she would end up out of control with too much forward.


Scott,

Thank you, I think that you have nailed the issue there. Putting on forward 'to enable a launch' is wrong. Once 'in flight' the settings should be consistent!

Thanks for your observation.

Felix

#20 REVflyer

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 02:42 AM

Scott, kids are always the exception.
They're too short and my long throw handles drag on the ground besides, when I give lessons.

Ian Willoughby (10 now) tells the story of asking Dantonio "why were his handles were so short compared to LaMasters"?! I think he was five when I first started to teach a flailing REV flight style to him. He's on my home-built TI handles.

My forward drive is usually with the lines touching, requiring a conscious effort to add sufficient energy to gain initial lift, reverse or flicked inside-out completely is just a thumb snap away. If I were flying a figure entirely in reverse I'd simply grip lower on the handles besides. Notice how they have less of an angled bend and more foam length overall, 17 inches across the gap, grade 5 titanium 3/8" diameter tubes, custom three-toned grips by Glenn Hanyes.

Super-student is using a custom set of long throw no snag handless, (we convinced Lolly to make 15 sets about '03 at Nationals to our exact specs) 16+ inches across the gap

Kevin has a set of Blast handles in his hands, 15 inches across the gap

The last guy I don't know his name, but we're on short handles because it Tobago and there's always beach wind, so shorter works just fine. No wind I find easier to teach on long throws, more sensitive means the students develops that delicate grip and line sensitivity quicker

You need enough wind that you can sit on the ground with the tiniest of tykes though. I chased a mother and her stroller for 20 minutes along the boardwalk in Treasure Island this past winter. She finally got the little warrior out onto the sand and let him run free. He's just learning to walk mind you, like a drunken sailor on shore leave, probably in his first pair of shoes. I chased him on foot for awhile longer. Finally mom brings him over and the kids' like knee high on me (6'3")! I sit the kid in my lap and we fly together anyway, he doesn't speak anything understandable to me at all, but he's sure makin' a racket! The handles were way too big around, so the boy grabs onto my thumbs instead with his mini-death grips. That hour or so was one of the most enjoyable times I've evr had kiting. But the wind conditions were text-book perfect as well. So silky smooth you didn't want to stop for liquids or a meal!

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