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Rev Indoors questions


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#1 kwmf

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:33 PM

Well tonight was probably my single biggest advancement in Rev flying since I started. I took my new Indoor out for its maiden flight - and I've probably learnt more about flying a Rev tonight that in all the time I've flown my outdoors. It was an absolute blast, and if my (far) better half wasn't bored and suffering with a headache I'd probably be there now arguing with the security why they should let me keep flying even though it's 2 hours past closing time Posted Image

I have a lot of things running through my mind right now and figured I should ask questions while it's all fresh. To answer the inevitable question I always see, yes - I was flying the kite and not tossing it about on strings.

I was flying on the indoor handles, which took me a little while to get used to since they don't have the same bend as the B series, but after about 30 minutes I tried the B series handles and had no control by comparison. Took me less than about 3 minutes to switch back the the indoor handles. What the indoor handles HAVE taught me is line tension - since it requires the bottoms to be pointed forwards a lot. I actually have better control and less over control in reverse 360 than I do in forward - I think it's due to more even tension on all 4 lines in reverse and more slack in the reverse lines when in forward.

Another thing I learnt is that I'm not fond of 50# lines Posted Image
Currently, my only pure indoor lineset is from Theresa at 12' of 50# LPG with sleeving only on the handle side. My question is would things be adversely affected if I used 90# with sleeving on both ends?

I never really got a self launch done tonight, can anyone provide any guidance?
I can do a catch and throw outdoors on 12' and 20' but it just wasn't happening tonight on the indoor. I suspect I'm being caught out by the springy nature of the frame when compared to my outdoor. I also tried the one I've seen where you spin around while gliding the kite horizontally, releasing and then catching it inverted and flying away. In both this case and the case of the throw, I wasn't coming out of the horizontal to inverted vertical right (or at all) so I couldn't fly off from there.

I'm sure I had more questions, but my bed is calling. The one question I do have is with regards to the leading edge material. After flying I found 2 tears in the leading edge, which could only have been cause by ground friction. The one was about 0.12" so I've already sorted that with CA glue, the other is about 0.25" so I haven't touched that one yet. I know the LE material is much thinner (and therefore lighter), but I would've thought it would stand up to rubbing on a basketball court. As I get better this shouldn't be a problem, but I'd like my kite to survive long enough for me to get there. The tears were on opposite ends of the leading edge (one left, one right) past the reinforced area by the vertical spars.

I'm a little disappointed in that aspect, is this normal and what would be the best way to protect and reinforce the LE from friction?

Anyway, pics attached of the maiden flight ... consider me hooked on indoor as well now Posted Image

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#2 Watty

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 08:20 PM

I don't think you would find much of a problem in weight by switching to 90lb line.

As for the toss and catch I have a video with multiple tosses and catches that are possible to do with the rev indoor.


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#3 kwmf

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:05 PM

Hey Spence

I know it's possible, and I can do it outdoors on my 1.5, I'm just being caught out by the different flight dynamics Posted Image

What lines do you run indoors?
I'm thinking if I used 90# sleeved on both ends then I can use those lines outdoors as well.

Any suggestions on reinforcing/protecting the leading edge without adversely affecting flight characteristics?

#4 REVflyer

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 02:52 AM

As far as the scuffs and wear on the leading edge, . . .
that's not about the kite anyway my friend, that's about the pilot!

Don't drag it on the ground, or show-off those wear spots like a badge of courage. They are the blood stains on your black belt, you don't wash those out in laundry soap! You've earned each one of those marks thru the pain of experience. That kite will fly until it's ragged mess, you should see one of Scott Weider's indoor kites. It would look better if you dropped it onto a operating chainsaw. Kites only look pristine if you never use 'em! You wanted an indoor kite besides, it's 5 ounces instead of 8, so naturally almost all of the durability is sacrificed in pursuit of maximum performance. Light weight means delicate

Now to fix it
9460 adhesive bonding tape from 3M, (1/4 inch width) plus whatever material you want to adhere to the leading edge as a scuff guard. Mylar backed nylon in a thin strip would look cool and be functional without adding too much weight. I wouldn't address fixing it myself until it got much worse though.
~ Lay down the tape on the leading edge patching material following a pencil line,
~ rub the adhesive tape vigorously from the backing side, smoothing out any wrinkles or air bubbles using a thumb nail or a credit card
~ Dismantle the kite, removing spars and fittings, so it's easier to work with, smooth out the sail's leading edge (you may need to iron-out the crease, so it's perfectly flat)
~ cover it ever so carefully with your new material patch. Don't be upset if several do-over efforts are necessary. The tape is not permanent immediately. You can ball-it up like rubber cement to remove excess, but don't go eating dinner or walking the dog while it's setting up incorrectly either.

When everything is perfect, only then
place some heavy weights on top overnight, or better yet, iron the tape to fuse it properly. This product is designed to bond two pieces of metal together permanently. Whatever you used as the substrate will fail before the adhesive does. You'd better be "doubly-damn sure" everything is perfectly positioned before you even plug in that iron! You could make the entire kite as a no-sew using this product, then fly the kite for thousands of hours. A truly great product every kite builder should own.

#5 Theresa

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 09:10 AM

Another thing I learnt is that I'm not fond of 50# lines Posted Image
Currently, my only pure indoor lineset is from Theresa at 12' of 50# LPG with sleeving only on the handle side. My question is would things be adversely affected if I used 90# with sleeving on both ends?

Posted Image


As you'll find out, line weight is a personnal preference.

Most flyers use LPG 90#. the extra weight is not that much, and I find that it 'falls' away from the kite much better than the lighter weight line.

Now, if you check with Scotty W. his very favorite is LPG 30# :)

Have fun!!

T

#6 Watty

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 09:19 AM

Hey Spence

I know it's possible, and I can do it outdoors on my 1.5, I'm just being caught out by the different flight dynamics Posted Image

What lines do you run indoors?
I'm thinking if I used 90# sleeved on both ends then I can use those lines outdoors as well.

Any suggestions on reinforcing/protecting the leading edge without adversely affecting flight characteristics?


The lines that I use indoors are 20', 8', and 5' 50lb shanti speed. If I were to get some indoor line sets today, I would go with 90lb LPG instead. When I first started flying indoors 3 years ago, I needed to get some lines for the kite. I was in Long Beach at the time, and I had the thought in my mind that I needed 50lb line. I decided to buy a bit of bulk line and make the sets myself. The store that I went to didn't have LPG 50lb bulk, so I went with shanti. None of my indoor line sets have sleeving. This is not a personal preference, but a side effect of laziness. In all honesty, the difference in lines from 50lb to 90lb or sleeving and no sleeving is not going to make a significant difference. The only thing that I have noticed is that the 50lb lines tend to get themselves into knots a bit easier than my 90lb lines.

Edited by Watty, 21 April 2010 - 09:21 AM.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#7 kwmf

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 11:49 AM

Thanks again for the info...

@Watty
I haven't had tangling issues with the 50# yet, but I'm not pushing the capabilities of the indoor yet since I'm just getting to know it. As long as it doesn't make it any harder to fly with 90# then I would want to go that way so I can use the same lines on my B series outdoors - more uses for the same line set.

@Theresa
I do beileve you should have recieved an email from me that requires some attention. With a little luck I can send another order your way.

@REVflyer
Thanks for the fix-it advice, will see what I can do. While I agree with you about it being the pilot, etc ... I have to disagree somewhat regarding the don't drag it and it's to be expected sentiment. The fact that it IS the pilot would lead one to think that the leading edge IS going to rub against the floor during an inverted take off or from a down turn that didn't complete before reaching the ground. Surely then this would be a natural wear point and in need of a bit of duribility, especially as new pilots learn. I do expect to see dirt and scuffing and normal wear on any kite, but a rip from the first flight is a bit fast I would say. The fact that its going to need to be patched is going to add to the weight anyway, so it could have been made with a bit more durability in the first place. Thats just my thinking as a yet uneducated indoor pilot. As I get better, I'm sure I will not only avoid the potential issues, but I will actually WANT the lightness. I'm just saying it sucks that a new pilot has to expect their investment in equipment to suffer during the normal learning process.


Does anyone know the weight difference between an indoor rev and a 1.5 with race rods?
Any idea what the weight difference would be if the indoor was made with the same LE material as the 1.5 series?

#8 REVflyer

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 11:55 AM

I listed the weights previously
the SUL 1.5 (has that same 1-1/2 ounce nylon leading edge as your indoor wing), weighs about 8 ounces

In fact you can order this leading edge material on most any of their products!

the rev indoor weighs around 5 ounces

A new NASCAR driver is going to crash, the willy veteran already has many time before. You still wouldn't want to give the rookie a more durable car it would weigh too mauch and affect his performance efforts.

#9 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 01:34 PM

It doesn't seem like a wooden gym floor should tear the kite's leading edge on the first outing. Might check the floor for hidden dangers, like the head of a finish nail a tiny bit above the surface.

Now, you're description of having more control in reverse than forward is similar to what I experienced when starting to fly indoors. Probably you are relying too much on forward momentum instead of sail pressure. Try to fly slower, but cover more ground with your feet to get a feel for that same sail pressure in forward flight that you discovered in reverse. Line slack is not typically your friend.
Scott A Koenig
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"We muster to fly at a moment's notice"

#10 kwmf

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 02:12 PM

The better reverse is not so much relying on forward momentum as it is a case of reverse FORCES me into having more even line tension on all 4 lines where forward will work with slack reverse lines. The slackness obviously leads to over control issues, which I'm working on correcting. Those mistakes were amplified when I tried the B series handles because there is more of a bend which leads to more slack on the reverse.

This is why going indoor was such a huge step forward for me, because I learnt heaps about so many things, line tension and sail pressure being the biggest aspect of that. Indoor has got to be one of the most fun things I have done with a rev and I plan to do a lot more of it. Its going to be interesting to see how these new understandings transfer to my outdoor skills - hopefully I can find out this weekend.


@REVflyer
You give me too much credit, I think I'm far from being a rookie Nascar Rev flyer when it comes to indoors ... outdoors maybe, but definately not indoors. I was wondering more what the weight difference on an indoor would be if it was made with the same sail and rods, but a stronger leading edge instead of the 1.5 ounce nylon you mentioned. I only wonder since patching will increase the weight anyway, so naturally I wondered what the weight would be if it had a stronger LE to begin with.

No doubt a Nascar is better than a heavier, more solid car ... but when you're funding your own race machine (with a poor exchange rate to boot), you may get more enjoyment out of something a bit more solid playing in a lower class with less maintenance until you develop your skills to a level where you are more comfortable to go all the way.

I totally agree with you and have no doubt that I will want the current LE configuration in the end anyway, just saying it takes some of the pleasure and enjoyment out of it as you learn. With what I know now, I think I probably would have been happy to sacrifice some performance for durability to start with and then get a high performance machine later. Thats just my thoughts as a beginner who wants as much enjoyment as possible as I get into something before pushing the limits.

The flip side is, would I have learnt this if I didn't start with the thinner LE?

I don't have access local access to skilled rev pilots and I'm the only one on such short lines outdoors, much less flying indoors. As a result, I pretty much have to learn by trying or buying something myself and/or asking any question I have (no matter how daft) here. The tear will get patched and I plan to put many more enjoyable hours into the indoor on top of the already enjoyable time spent with it.

Thanks again for the patching method, its very detailed and I'm currently looking into where I can get what I need.




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