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Making you own line sets


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#1 DonaldLL

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 09:31 PM

I was thinking about learning how to make my own line sets. what do I need to buy and where? I see places to buy line but what about sleeves? Do I need anything else?

Thanks

#2 Baloo

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 09:46 PM

All you need is the line LPG is arguably best, best bought on a bulk reel.

Some sleeving, I buy LPG 100lb bridle line and strip the centre core out (it is easy to do) then you have stuff for sleeving and stuff for fixing bridles.

You will also need a G String (no not the pants, however they are optional) from a Guitar or maybe a Piano that you can fold in half to pull the string through the sleeving.

Some folks do not use sleeving and just tie the knots right in the line.

Most decent Kite Stores will sell you this stuff, You might need to go to a Music shop for the G string.

I know Theresa at Thekiteshoppe caries stuff, however Kent or many others who get on here own shops that will help.

Then you need lots of patience to begin with, suitable instructions (wich you can find on here) and a Day with no wind, cuz you would be out flying if it was windy wouldnt you?

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

#3 Theresa

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 09:58 PM

I was thinking about learning how to make my own line sets. what do I need to buy and where? I see places to buy line but what about sleeves? Do I need anything else?

Thanks


Hi Donald,

I have LPG available in bulk; 50#, 90#, 150# and heavier too :)
and the 100# bridle line for sleeving that Baloo mentioned too. 170# bridle line goes on the 150# LPG.

I use 26 gauge florist wire to sleeve it on the line.

And if you want to call me, I'll talk you through the process :)

Theresa

#4 Baloo

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 10:03 PM

T also has a Forum with good instructions on how to make a Dual line set.

If you want a Quad set just put 4 lines in instead of 2 :)

Oh, and when she says "call me,I'll talk you through the process" she is not saying only if you buy the stuff from me. T is REAL helpful, once again as are most, sorry should say all of the suppliers associated with the forum.

Hope you didnt mind me adding that T.

Edited by Baloo, 13 April 2010 - 10:06 PM.


#5 DonaldLL

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 10:08 PM

WoW that was quick!

Theresa I'll be giving you a call.

Thanks

#6 Theresa

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 10:11 PM

T also has a Forum with good instructions on how to make a Dual line set.

If you want a Quad set just put 4 lines in instead of 2 :)

Oh, and when she says "call me,I'll talk you through the process" she is not saying only if you buy the stuff from me. T is REAL helpful, once again as are most, sorry should say all of the suppliers associated with the forum.

Hope you didnt mind me adding that T.


No I don't mind!!

:)

and OT...did your box arrive? :) and if so....how do you like the case? :)

#7 REVflyer

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 03:10 AM

If you are choosing not to use any sleeving

then tie a stopper knot in the line BEFORE you make your loops,... and use a larger loop than you think is appropriate also
(because any length adjustments are going to be made thru the placement of additional overhand knots into the longer flying line(s).

I measure the loops' lengths with a set of forceps so they are always consistent. Grasp the very end of the line in the jaws and wrap around the handles towards the locking mechanism, go around a couple of times keeping everything tight, tight, tight!. That newly identified point is pinched between your fingers, then the jaws are re-placed in this new location.
Take the loose line and simply wrap it around itself twice and pull tight against the jaws of the forceps, release the forceps.
Next,pinch both lines together in your fingers and tie an overhand knot into the loop, right next to the stopper. Separate the two halves and then yank '-em up tight, in opposite directions, so the overhand knot moves into the proper location.
Once it's snug you will finish the loop by pinching the end point of the short piece against the line headed back to the roll, carefully sliding your fingers down the 2 lengths so everything is smooth, without twists and the same length. Pinch the jaws onto this new position and lock. The last knot is a figure of eight, because it tightens in both directions. That knot can wind up anywhere along that premeasured length and the size is consistent. When all flying lines are done, carefully affix each to a well-placed stake and insure the overall lengths of flying lines are identical. If you take the longest one and add a singe overhand knot and then separate the two halves so you can pull it into place (towards the kite-NOT the handles) you can shorten it's length ever so slightly, until all are perfect.

There's no reason to use sleeving, I've never had a line break (next to the knots) in 17 years. If you placed a stopper knot, you can open the larkshead even with gloves on! Less junk sticking out means less opportunities to tangle or snag-up the flying lines too.

Last proofing stage is to affix your handles on the flying lines, yank 'em tight and see if they align perfectly. You may need to switch the strings around to get the best matching pairs in length. When all is perfect, then identify your lines with well placed sharpie markers, maybe even different colors. I only mark the tops and ALWAYS larkshead the tops onto the bottoms for each side.

I'm so lazy I don't even adjust the lengths of the flying lines anymore, I just change the leader (100# hi-test bridle line) knot's position and keep the lines on their own handles. I wind the line directly onto the handles again 'cause it's the easiest way. Less time goofing with set-up and more time flying. I know the lines are tuned properly because they are tested frequently by placing onto the stake and aligning the handles tightly.

There's no one solution and your mileage may vary!
-plm

Attached Thumbnails

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  • speed-winding.jpg


#8 DonaldLL

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 08:31 PM

Paul.... thanks or the tips. I'll start another topic regarding the necessity (or not) of the sleeves. I was wondering about this.

#9 Baloo

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 11:48 PM

Hi T, still no box yet. :wacko:

Hi Paul, understand about your choice of not using sleeving, and can see where it would make line sets easier to put together.

Reading your description can I confirm that,

You put a stopper knot (a simple overhand knot, same as you do B4 tying the bow when doing shoe laces) in the end of the line. This is to stop the finished knot slipping off the end of the line and presumably help stop fraying?

Understand the bit about using a nice secure figure 8 knot to secure the loop.

It seems like you end up with a secure loop, which is the adjusted if needed by making further knots.

The bit I don't understand is why it seems you tie the small loop in the end to help undo the larkshead B4 you complete the full loop. I would have thought it best to do this once the loop was fully formed, and your mention of a stopper knot while doing this.

One theory of why you tie the small loop B4 completing the large (larksheadable) loop is to make sure of the length, as if you tie it after completing the loop it will have an impact on the line overall length.

Must admit, didnt fully understand your explaination of tying it all, and now I re-read my question, don't fully understand my question. :w00t:

#10 REVflyer

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 03:12 AM

taking a previously measured end-piece length
and going "twice around" the line (that leads back to the reel)
puts a stopper in place,
so that the overhand knot (which can move and you do want it to) can move only up to & against this point.
It can't slide off entirely and release your flying line (taboo safety violation!)

Yet the attachment point knot on your flying line is very tiny! The chances of a snag (say on an end-cap?, or the elastic knot and washer assembly? (at the bottom of the triangular sail).

The completed loop assembled in this manner has double strength everywhere, except at the point where the single length back to your handles intersects. That exact point is four thicknesses of 90# LPG and the pattern of closure weaves in and out of itself in a figure eight. It will NOT fail at the intersection knot!

clearer now?

Take some thick practice line and get comfortable with the knots. To exactly position a figure of eight is your objective! Make two tiny dots with a silver sharpie. Clasp them into the jaws of your forceps, then make your figure of eight, have it completely tight and as small as possible,.... butted directly against the forceps jaws. There's a trick, you need to figure out thru practice..... you'll "flip one half of the eight over the top of itself", then all the slack can be withdrawn in one direction, away from the jaws. (Remember, this knot tightens it two directions, you want to overcome this, the trick is the flip)

#11 REVflyer

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 03:21 AM

you're using the forceps for many purposes,

it's a very consistent measuring device it's heat shield when fusing the end points it's a decent needle-nosed plier to undue poor positioning it's a vise to hold pieces tightly

Go buy a set from the fishing supply store, don't order them on-line!,
try 'em out in person, open the packaging, make sure they lock tightly and truly comfortable on your figures.

Honestly it's one of the handiest tools in my kitebag, that a short spool of hi-test 100#.

#12 Baloo

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 04:06 AM

Aha, understand better now thank you.

As for forceps, got quite a few of those here. Used to be a Paramedic. They are pretty good for clamping all sorts of stuff. :)

I am going to try out your no sleve concept next time I make some lines up. I had always thought that the sleeving was to keep the strenght where the knots were made, however if you have had no problems I will try witout. Also it gave you summat to grab to undo the Larkshead, however with your little loop at the end of the loop that sorts that bit out.

Have spent part of the Morning equalising my existing sets. Only had one that was a bit out. A simple knot soon sorted that.

Once again, thank you for your help.

#13 BAZ

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 01:54 AM

does anyone know what diameter 50lb Laser pro gold line is ?
or has someone got a digital vernier gauge that they could measure some with
thanks in advance

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#14 BAZ

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 10:28 AM

does anyone know what diameter 50lb Laser pro gold line is ?
or has someone got a digital vernier gauge that they could measure some with
thanks in advance


I'm surprised some of you technical bods havent got a vernier caliper to take a measurement of Laser Pro Gold 50lb line
any takers ?

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#15 Kitelife

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 10:30 AM

Okay, I'll bite... Why?

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#16 RevWizard

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 10:45 AM

I'm surprised some of you technical bods havent got a vernier caliper to take a measurement of Laser Pro Gold 50lb line
any takers ?

They are not solid like metal. You could measure the lines, using calipers in 20 different places and you would get 20 different readings.
If you really need to know the diameter they were designed to, try going to the manufacture and checking out their specs.
As John said, Why? I don't see any good reason to do it.

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#17 BAZ

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 11:05 AM

They are not solid like metal. You could measure the lines, using calipers in 20 different places and you would get 20 different readings.
If you really need to know the diameter they were designed to, try going to the manufacture and checking out their specs.
As John said, Why? I don't see any good reason to do it.

I did have a look for line specs but drew a blank - if anyone knows where to find the info ?
im just looking for a rough measurement of the diameter (line drag) - i measured LPG 90lb line at approx 0.54mm diameter (as you say you could measure it in many places and get many slightly different answers)
i am looking at a lower cost alternative to the LPG and would like to get something like the same diameter as 50lb LPG line (somewhere near not exact)
i see it that i would only use this strength and length line very occasionally and cannot really justify the price of LPG 50lb for very occasional use (plus its harder for us to obtain in the UK and so have to pay the extra premium for delivery from the states plus import duty etc etc)
BUT
I think a set of 120 foot 50lb lines is a useful addition to a rev bag
so if someone could do a rough measurement i would appreciate it

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#18 Jeepster

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 12:08 PM

... im just looking for a rough measurement of the diameter (line drag) - i measured LPG 90lb line at approx 0.54mm diameter (as you say you could measure it in many places and get many slightly different answers) ...


Geek alert on ...

Yep, John is right that it's hard to measure the diameter of LPG line ... kind of like measuring the loft of your feather pillow. However ...

Our LPG line is braided line. Lets assume that the cross sectional relationship between spectra and air is the same for all line strengths. And, that Laser Pro uses the same fiber (tensile strength) for the different line strengths. Then we can use a simple area relationship to calculate the diameter. Since we've assumed the same breaking strength for the fibers, all we have to do is measure one line diameter and ratio for any others. Assume a normalized diameter of 1 for 50lb test line. Our 90lb test line would necessarily have an 80 percent increase in area to resist the 80 percent increase in breaking strength. A back calculation yields a normalized diameter of 1.34. Likewise, 150lb test LPG would have a normalized diameter of 1.73.

Scaling your measurement of 0.54mm for 90 pound test down to 50 pound test line would result in a diameter of 0.40mm ... and scaling up to 150lb line would yield a diameter of 0.70mm.

A quick and dirty measurement of fresh-on-the spool 50, 90 and 150 LPG line diameters yields numbers that are close enough to our calculations for "government work." If the line you're looking at has the same tensile strength fibers in it as LPG, you're good to go. But, that maybe the hang up ... the yield strength of spectra fibers is all over the map.

Geek alert off ...

Cheers,
Tom

#19 BAZ

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 12:56 PM

Geek alert on ...

Yep, John is right that it's hard to measure the diameter of LPG line ... kind of like measuring the loft of your feather pillow. However ...

Our LPG line is braided line. Lets assume that the cross sectional relationship between spectra and air is the same for all line strengths. And, that Laser Pro uses the same fiber (tensile strength) for the different line strengths. Then we can use a simple area relationship to calculate the diameter. Since we've assumed the same breaking strength for the fibers, all we have to do is measure one line diameter and ratio for any others. Assume a normalized diameter of 1 for 50lb test line. Our 90lb test line would necessarily have an 80 percent increase in area to resist the 80 percent increase in breaking strength. A back calculation yields a normalized diameter of 1.34. Likewise, 150lb test LPG would have a normalized diameter of 1.73.

Scaling your measurement of 0.54mm for 90 pound test down to 50 pound test line would result in a diameter of 0.40mm ... and scaling up to 150lb line would yield a diameter of 0.70mm.

A quick and dirty measurement of fresh-on-the spool 50, 90 and 150 LPG line diameters yields numbers that are close enough to our calculations for "government work." If the line you're looking at has the same tensile strength fibers in it as LPG, you're good to go. But, that maybe the hang up ... the yield strength of spectra fibers is all over the map.

Geek alert off ...

Cheers,
Tom


Nice one Tom
have you actually measured 50lb line then ?
The line i have been looking at is quoted at 0.24mm diameter for 80lb line which is considerably less in cross section than LPG 90lb (not the same breaking strain but similar)
the 50lb version is 0.17mm diameter which should have low drag
what i wanted to do is get the highest breaking strain that matches as near as i could to the diameter of 50lb LPG (i flew with a set of 50lb x 120 foot lines in low wind and it was very nice)
this would make the line more visible and be similar to the 50lb LPG but also have a higher breaking strain
so the theories are all good but it would still be nice to satisfy curiosity and have someone drop a vernier caliper on a set of 50lb LPG

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#20 Jeepster

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 02:35 PM

Nice one Tom
have you actually measured 50lb line then ?
The line i have been looking at is quoted at 0.24mm diameter for 80lb line which is considerably less in cross section than LPG 90lb (not the same breaking strain but similar)
the 50lb version is 0.17mm diameter which should have low drag
what i wanted to do is get the highest breaking strain that matches as near as i could to the diameter of 50lb LPG (i flew with a set of 50lb x 120 foot lines in low wind and it was very nice)
this would make the line more visible and be similar to the 50lb LPG but also have a higher breaking strain
so the theories are all good but it would still be nice to satisfy curiosity and have someone drop a vernier caliper on a set of 50lb LPG


Yes, I measured 50, 90 and 150lb LPG. It's hard to come up with a single value to publish. Thus, I did the calculations to demonstrate to myself that I was in the ball park with my measurements. My measurement of 90lb LPG was a little less than yours ... about 0.50mm +/- 0.05mm. The 50lb and 150lb came out close to my calculations at 37mm and 0.66mm respectively. Again, a wide variance in diameters based on where you measured and how tightly you squeezed the line.

Your two data points don't follow the trend I'm seeing with the LPG. From a diameter of 0.17mm to a diameter of 0.24mm is close to a doubling in the cross sectional area, yet the breaking strength only went up 60 percent. If we extrapolate to a zero diameter line, then it would have a breaking strength of 20lb. Something must be different between the two lines for which you're showing data. Mind sharing the web site?

Cheers,
Tom




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