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#1 kwmf

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 01:24 AM

Hi all

It's been a while since I last posted and I thought I'd drop a post on the things I've learnt since then fo all to comment/correct me.

Since my original questions, I now own a vented B, the SLE has a 4 wrap frame and I've made up some shorter lines (LPG). The wind has mostly been terrible, but I've got out where weather has allowed...

I really like the 30' lines, the kite is so close and responsive - its like I've got 4 cables to the frame, and any problems I can just walk to the kite and sort it out, step back and lanuch.

I haven't had a chance to fly the 4 wrap against the SLE on my original full sail SLE so I can't actually attest to the specific differences right now. Even tho Mr B says they're better, I want to fly them back to back to eliminate the placebo effect.

I am flying on the standard B handles with the brakes all the way in and the tops normally about 4 knots from fully extended. I have to step and/or pop the lines to get forward drive a whole lot more than on the standard SLE handles, but I do understand (and agree with) the reasoning for it and will continue with this setup. I'm comfortable moving to get the drive on again, just going to take some getting used to.

The vented is really smooth and handles the gust nicely, unfortunately the only wind I had it in was gusting between nicely powered up down to floating out the sky and I needed to move back and pop just to hold it in position. I had the 4 wrap frame and 50' of 90# LPG on that occasion. Hopefully I will get better wind because I really really liked the feel of the vented. Maybe that day was a case for a mid vent hey Posted Image

When skilled flyers say the 4 wraps are pretty damn strong, they mean they overkill for THEIR skill level - if you're still learning precise control like me and come from a power kite background you can snap a rod fairly easily Posted Image

If you're wondering I was on the full sail SLE with the 4 wrap frame, 50' LPG 90# in the winds mentioned above for the vented. I was practicing hovers in the lower part of the window and had decided to work on inverted hovers. Naturally the gusts were making life a little tricky at times as the full sail wanted to surge when they hit. At some point the inverted hover became unstable and the fight was on to restablise. I lost the fight and the kite did an lovely counter clockwise rotation around inner tip of the rotation. It was a really fast powerful rotation and when the outside windtip hit the ground in the rotation the leaging edge spar that contacted the ground just snapped. It broke right at the ferrule.

I replaced it with one of the 4 wraps from my vented frame and carried on, but I was a bit surprised at the break. I've attached a picture of the break, perhaps it holds useful information that the more skilled can interpret for me

Cheers
Steven

Attached Thumbnails

  • Broken 4 wrap.JPG


#2 big bri

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 01:38 PM

Hello Steve
Sorry about the rod breaking,but its the same for us all.Ive slammed stuff and though,HO SH...Thats smashed.Only to find it ok.Cant remember the last time i broke a rod,but it happens and its painfull.Usually happens when your outa ya comfort zone,pushing the boundries or trying new stuff in perhaps less than ideal conditions.With perhaps the wrong set up of kit.
Longer lines would give a little more reaction time.Shorter the lines.Faster the kite,less time to react.A vented would obviously level the gust.Rather than a full sail.Which will catch the full gust.

The spars are strong,but not indistructable.Looks like a pritty streight forward break tome from ya photo.Its a bummer just the same.I hope you have better winds soon.


Keep the faith and keep practicing.Dont let it putcha off.

BRIAN...

#3 Watty

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 02:18 PM

Hi all

It's been a while since I last posted and I thought I'd drop a post on the things I've learnt since then fo all to comment/correct me.

Since my original questions, I now own a vented B, the SLE has a 4 wrap frame and I've made up some shorter lines (LPG). The wind has mostly been terrible, but I've got out where weather has allowed...

I really like the 30' lines, the kite is so close and responsive - its like I've got 4 cables to the frame, and any problems I can just walk to the kite and sort it out, step back and lanuch.

I haven't had a chance to fly the 4 wrap against the SLE on my original full sail SLE so I can't actually attest to the specific differences right now. Even tho Mr B says they're better, I want to fly them back to back to eliminate the placebo effect.

I am flying on the standard B handles with the brakes all the way in and the tops normally about 4 knots from fully extended. I have to step and/or pop the lines to get forward drive a whole lot more than on the standard SLE handles, but I do understand (and agree with) the reasoning for it and will continue with this setup. I'm comfortable moving to get the drive on again, just going to take some getting used to.

The vented is really smooth and handles the gust nicely, unfortunately the only wind I had it in was gusting between nicely powered up down to floating out the sky and I needed to move back and pop just to hold it in position. I had the 4 wrap frame and 50' of 90# LPG on that occasion. Hopefully I will get better wind because I really really liked the feel of the vented. Maybe that day was a case for a mid vent hey Posted Image

When skilled flyers say the 4 wraps are pretty damn strong, they mean they overkill for THEIR skill level - if you're still learning precise control like me and come from a power kite background you can snap a rod fairly easily Posted Image

If you're wondering I was on the full sail SLE with the 4 wrap frame, 50' LPG 90# in the winds mentioned above for the vented. I was practicing hovers in the lower part of the window and had decided to work on inverted hovers. Naturally the gusts were making life a little tricky at times as the full sail wanted to surge when they hit. At some point the inverted hover became unstable and the fight was on to restablise. I lost the fight and the kite did an lovely counter clockwise rotation around inner tip of the rotation. It was a really fast powerful rotation and when the outside windtip hit the ground in the rotation the leaging edge spar that contacted the ground just snapped. It broke right at the ferrule.

I replaced it with one of the 4 wraps from my vented frame and carried on, but I was a bit surprised at the break. I've attached a picture of the break, perhaps it holds useful information that the more skilled can interpret for me

Cheers
Steven


Hi Steve,

One thing that stood out to me was your handle settings. You say " B handles with the brakes all the way in and the tops normally about 4 knots from fully extended". I am assuming that this means the bottom lines are pulled in, and the top is 4 knots in. Something that comes up in my mind would be to move the bottom and top lines out the same number of knots until one of them is at the end of the pigtail. This just just cleans things up a bit and prevents all those dangling knots that things can get caught on.

As for your rod break, yes it happens. I can't think of when I have ever broken a 4-wrap rod (though I'm sure I have), but one thing to take a look at that makes this kind of break more likely to happen is the ferrules in the center rod. What happens occasionally is that the glue holding the ferules in place gives a bit and the ferrule slips into the rod. This makes it so that there is less of the ferrule holding onto the outer rod, enabling it to snap easier. To avoid this, every time I set up one of my kites, I feel the edges of the inner rod through the leading edge fabric to make out how much of the ferrule is sticking out. If it feels short, take out the rod and pull the ferrule out a bit. You could even go home and pull it all the way out, add some super glue and put it back in.

Spence "Watty" Watson

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

 


#4 SynTaks

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 08:52 PM

Hi Steve,

One thing that stood out to me was your handle settings. You say " B handles with the brakes all the way in and the tops normally about 4 knots from fully extended". I am assuming that this means the bottom lines are pulled in, and the top is 4 knots in. Something that comes up in my mind would be to move the bottom and top lines out the same number of knots until one of them is at the end of the pigtail. This just just cleans things up a bit and prevents all those dangling knots that things can get caught on.


I think on the B-series standard handles we have, 4 knots from the top [middle one] and the second knot on the bottom is even. I wouldn't be surprised if its an optical illusion though ;) So on the second knot inside on the bottoms is only about a 1/2" adjustment. Tak figured out to stick the end of the top leader through a between space closer to the handle, kind of making a loop so its out of the way.

Posted Image
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#5 big bri

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 12:31 AM

Hi Steve,

One thing that stood out to me was your handle settings. You say " B handles with the brakes all the way in and the tops normally about 4 knots from fully extended". I am assuming that this means the bottom lines are pulled in, and the top is 4 knots in. Something that comes up in my mind would be to move the bottom and top lines out the same number of knots until one of them is at the end of the pigtail. This just just cleans things up a bit and prevents all those dangling knots that things can get caught on.

As for your rod break, yes it happens. I can't think of when I have ever broken a 4-wrap rod (though I'm sure I have), but one thing to take a look at that makes this kind of break more likely to happen is the ferrules in the center rod. What happens occasionally is that the glue holding the ferules in place gives a bit and the ferrule slips into the rod. This makes it so that there is less of the ferrule holding onto the outer rod, enabling it to snap easier. To avoid this, every time I set up one of my kites, I feel the edges of the inner rod through the leading edge fabric to make out how much of the ferrule is sticking out. If it feels short, take out the rod and pull the ferrule out a bit. You could even go home and pull it all the way out, add some super glue and put it back in.



Watty could be correct and its a good point to make.Because it does happen,its a good practice to check ferrules.

Had a good look at the break and it is possible the ferrule worked loose and cracked the spar,but usually when that happens.The damage isnt as elongated.,,,,Was the Ferrule loose at all.....
When the glue fails to hold the ferrule and as the ferrule works its way more into one spar than the other[because its loose].This causes more stress on the spar end.The end is usually wher it would then crack or splinter and its usually the spar with the least amount of ferrule.That would fail first or the one that does splinter ive found.
The break looks like the ferrule held the rod on impact and smashed through due to the force of impact.The practure,splintering and break would seem to suggest that.Im no C.S.I. agent though,,, :}

BRIAN...


I cant remember it happening on any of my Revs,but on SLKs,Duals and other stuff,its always worth a good tug at the ferrules every now and then.I doit as second nature on any spars that have Ferrules.

#6 REVflyer

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 05:58 AM

add more brake in your handle tuning/setting, AND get used to it all the way out,... or almost (on the tops).

to test your tuning,
start with the kite inverted, sitting on the ground,.... it should back-up with only minor effort of feet and touch of forward thumbs (pushed at the kite).
Less is more! Don't over-control.

Practice minor inputs (and walk backward slightly, if doing this session in low or no wind) which will more quickly advance your skill-set by the way!
That is how much "DOWN" you need! Now learn to fly it forward from this setting and be ready to hover on instant command,... just a touch more and the kite should fly backwards. Become comfortable with the leading edge inverted. PUSH those thumbs, keep your hands close together and relax, this is supposed to be fun. Hold the handles in a light delicate grip, so light the slightest breeze almost rips it from your grasp. Now you are developing muscle-memory, let the kite talk to you down the lines. You won't break any more sticks after mastering this stuff unless you are totally abusing your equipment.

Check your line-set by staking down all 4 ends onto a common, well placed stake. The handles should perfectly align when pulled tight side-by-side. If everything is tuned perfectly the kite should dance on the end of the strings with just minor flicks of your thumb balanced on your index finger. Don't be squeezing the poor thangs please!

#7 kwmf

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 06:54 AM

Hi guys

First thing I checked was the ferrule, I remembered reading something about that when I was still looking at changing the SLE rods and getting a vented, etc. I even rechecked it again when I was at home and pulled the whole leading edge out to re-inspect it closer. Both ferrules are even and didn't seem to have any wiggle or play to them. The break is dead on where the ferrule ends inside the outer rod - because the kite was in a rotating forward drive, when the outer edge contacted the ground that spar was stalled, but the kite was still trying to rotate - so I'd say the statement about the ferrule busting through the rod is about right.

I have attached a file that kinda shows where my lines are attached. They're not standard B handles, but I've put red marks in the same relative position - brake line is attached at the knot closest to the handle (as far back as I can go) and top lines are 4 knots back from the end of the leader.

It gives me WAY more brake than I was used to with the SLE handles - in fact it's harder to get the kite going forwards than backwards. I know I can get further out, but I'm going to have to work my way there, just getting used to this setup first.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Handles.jpg


#8 REVflyer

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 07:29 AM

We all went thru the same down adjusting period. Heck, some never changed over from all forward drive, but they are missing out on the wonderful control capabilities of these kites!

I have more brake now that ever before, some like more even than my set-up
but very not many!

It seems weird that you have more length on the bottom of the handles than you are using. May I inquire as to why?
Longer throws will be more twitchy (in the beginning) but they will also teach you a greater level of overall control and expand the wind range more towards the low end.

You can see the physics easily,
wiggle/push you thumb forward an inch and see how far the bottoms move in a comparison relationship. That is the "Throw". Full forward drive will mean both lines are touching as they exit the handles towards the kite. Hove and reverse are just a slight touch away with a thumb flick.

You should adjust the leader knots (move them) such that the tops are let out all the way (no tangle point with the excess hanging in the way), then keep adding REVERSE until you arrive at the proper tuning for a neutral comfortable position when grasping the handles. The overall length of the handles is what I use as a top leader length basis. The leader should almost reach all the way across the gap. The longer this leader is, the further out you can safely reach for doing 3D moves w/o cutting yourself on the raw spectra. If all you adjustments are only made to the bottom leaders this overall top length remains a common denominator which leads to muscle memory. I know,... I-quad does it differently, there are many paths to your destination. Exploring the options is part of the fun. Tuning is a part of personalization.

#9 Puppeteer

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 05:25 AM

The image kwmf has used appears to be from my gallery showing some Custom 3 in 1 Handles I made a while back. These give easy switching between handle lengths and, with additional hole drilling, can provide any length you require - giving far too much potential for adjustment Posted Image

This set is drilled for the 3 standard rev handle lengths (11", 13" and 15") and, dispite all the experimentation, I still end up using the 13" (with plenty of brake).
It flies through the air in exactly the same way a dual line doesn't.
My Kite Flying Places

#10 kwmf

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 05:32 AM

You would be correct... Posted Image
I couldn't find a good picture of the standard B handles so I hit the gallery for a picture of any handles that would show the leaders and knots nicely so I could roughly mark out my setup.

I'm guessing that if iQuad can have practically any setup they want and they use the standard handles with longer leaders, then the standard ones can't be so bad. Well, I keep telling myself things like this to prevent myself from fiddling with TOO many things at once Posted Image

It's bad enough that I'm telling myself that my last outing where the full vent would sometimes lose power and full sail would surge is a perfectly good reason to get a mid-vent.... lets not get me fiddling with every aspect of the setup all at the same time Posted Image

#11 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 01:35 PM

Hi guys

First thing I checked was the ferrule, I remembered reading something about that when I was still looking at changing the SLE rods and getting a vented, etc. I even rechecked it again when I was at home and pulled the whole leading edge out to re-inspect it closer. Both ferrules are even and didn't seem to have any wiggle or play to them. The break is dead on where the ferrule ends inside the outer rod - because the kite was in a rotating forward drive, when the outer edge contacted the ground that spar was stalled, but the kite was still trying to rotate - so I'd say the statement about the ferrule busting through the rod is about right.

I have attached a file that kinda shows where my lines are attached. They're not standard B handles, but I've put red marks in the same relative position - brake line is attached at the knot closest to the handle (as far back as I can go) and top lines are 4 knots back from the end of the leader.

It gives me WAY more brake than I was used to with the SLE handles - in fact it's harder to get the kite going forwards than backwards. I know I can get further out, but I'm going to have to work my way there, just getting used to this setup first.



Knowing your powerkiting background I'm going to take an educated guess that may be helpful. Part of the difference between a quad line sport kite and a quad line power kite is that the sport kite is actually flown on all four lines rather than primarily on the lead lines with the other two being brakes. If you're feeling the need to snap the kite to get forward drive with your setup, there is the possibility that you are relying too much on movement to keep the kite flying. The heavy reverse setup you are working towards relies on sail pressure to fly, and if you pull too much forward without keeping tension on the reverse lines than you lose all your sail pressure. If the kite makes a flapping noise you have lost the sail pressure, and it may be time to let those top lines out a knot. Try to think about loading the sail (by pulling the whole handle with an emphasis on the lead lines) rather than pulling the kite forward through the air with lead lines only.

Hope this helps

Edited by Scott_of_melnsct, 24 February 2010 - 01:36 PM.

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#12 kwmf

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 11:12 PM

Hi Scott

I definately still have a top line bias regarding the tension, but I am aware of it and understand the reason for the normal recommended Rev setup - that's why I'm working towards it.

I only encounter the need to step back and pop the lines when the wind drops for a moment and I find myself in a 'low wind' situation for a second or few. With the power kites I can go into figure 8's or make diving turns or something similar to increase the relative airflow and power up the cells again. Currently I don't have low wind skills for dual or quad sport kites, so that's why I struggle some.

There's a LOT I still need to get to grips with, but at least I'm aware of them thanks to this forum and the inputs from everyone.

Cheers

#13 REVflyer

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 07:23 AM

imagine you were trying to put lots of pressure on a large sheet of plywood inside a wind tunnel. How would you get that max air-pressure number? You'd have to hold the board perfectly square against the flow of air. If you are angling a REV sail in any direction you don't have it fully powered up! You need to think about holding it square, or using momentum to generate lift,.... gravity works well also!

Okay, so now it's blowing like there will be no tomorrow.
What action would be necessitated to maximize your control at the other end of the spectrum? You'd need to pull in the brakes several more inches, so even when giving full FORWARD commands the kite still can't get perpendicular to the wind. You'd be dumping air-pressure off of the top of the kite (the leading edge when flying forward)

What about a stack of kites? Now you'd want more forward drive, so the kites never get fully powered-up,... plus a stack won't fly backwards very well at all, so why bother. This is a set-up you as a traction kiter currently would most likely be relating to. (dumping air of of the trailing edge when flying forward)

Using the leaders on your handles, all these minor adjustments are made as necessary, based upon your local conditions. Many times these settings change during the course of a single day, probably only a single knot or two though.

Keep working on the inverted rise from a resting on the ground position. Get completely comfortable and relaxed with the kite flying inverted. It will cut years off of the learning curve! Low wind is easier to learn in, as the pilot has to plan, execute (and do more tuning of lines & handles). Nothing can be too far out of wack when all the energy of flight is generated solely by the pilot's actions.

Only minor inputs are required when you have a nice smooth beach wind, you can fly one handed (with practice) pretty easily. A dead calm is going to require some movement, either arms, or waist/torso, your feet and yes even the kite (an example?,... How about the "up & over". Now the kite is 180 degrees away on the other side of me and I didn't move from my stationary position.) The transition of these events is where all the practice time comes in. It just happens automatically after you have done it often enough.

Use all four lines under tension and the kite takes on magical properties!




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