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Zen speed versus Rev I


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#1 genesant

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 10:45 PM

This might have been covered but I don't remember reading an exact comparison. I have a Rev I with 2 wrap rods. It's my 'go to' kite for low winds. Many of you have indicated that the Zen is a beauty at low wind performance. Well, so is the Rev I which I will fly down around 2mph. Who has both and just what is the difference that you see between them. I would hate to get a Zen and be disappointed that I did not get enough difference for the large money outlay.

I'm not entirely fond of the slowness of the Rev I and find I have to fly it to a much slower pace of music than the 1.5 or the Rev II. I don't particularly like slow flying or mellow music. Since the Rev I will fly in lower wind, that is just too much work with the other kites, it gets pulled out a lot. So do any of you regularly fly a Rev I that also have the new Zen? Since the Zen is the same size as the Rev I could you tell me if it is as slow but just fills the sail better at low wind speeds?

#2 Kitelife

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 11:27 PM

Let me know the next time you roll through PDX, happy to let you feel the difference. ;)

Better loading, better lift, better power, equals a bit more speed and way better quick response than the Rev I, imho.

Also, the R/L wings don't fight for dominance as much, and reverse flight is significantly enhanced.

I flew a (Sedgwick) Rev I for 15 years before switching with the advent of the B, and now, I really look forward to my Zen days. :)

John Barresi

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#3 quaa714

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 04:34 AM

I have a Lam Hoac Rev1 (luckily and lovingly acquired from a PAL) that I had rarely ever flown mostly because I found it too truckish and slow in it's turning radius.
Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful kite and Lam had done his own mods on it which took some getting used to however when the breeze just dropped, out of the bag it would come and I would fly.

The Zen as John said, loads, lifts and responds with much more finesse due to bridle changes, sail cut, spars, etc. Response is not sluggish. While you can't snap the sial through turns and 180s like you can a 1.5, it's still much more lean than a standard Rev1.
Reverse flight, axels and other slack line work is much more enhanced and the kite is just FUN FUN FUN to fly. :kid_loved:
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#4 genesant

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 08:20 PM

John, I'll take you up on that sometime unless I decide to just go for it and buy one soon. I don't want to regret buying it and from both your comments it appears that I won't. Thanks for the info guys.

#5 REVflyer

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 05:57 AM

I'm also a craver of speed and movements that happen quickly (okay I flail by preference!)

I have loads of experience flying in a dead calm too, in fact it is why I get invited occasionally as a sponsored pilot. I have kites for all conditions but typically my mods are all about lowering the wind range and making a kite more responsive. My 1.5 kites are all dialed-in and suitable for my style and preferences,... magix sticks, different bridles, hybred frames, custom sails, plus the hours of experience necessary to overcome challenging conditions.

So to your concern,
generally the size of the kite effects how quickly directional movements can be translated from you to the sail, small is faster,
larger has more response sent down the lines to your hands, a tactile sensation. A small kite will be all twitchy and flickable but that famous dead slow REV control will be near impossible.
The Rev 1 and the Zen use the same sized components, naturally everything is upgraded & updated on the Zen. The Rev 1 love affair is long gone for many of us.

A bridle solution can solve most any problem, but sometimes at an extreme cost. The perfect flick-flax machine will not axel at all!

The factory's bridles are a compromise suitable for most everyone, but you could tune it yourself for a specific objective,... right? Say more responsive flying in a lower wind range for example. Sacrificing everything necessary to meet your objective?,... would you give up durability? how about losing a wider wind range? How far you push that envelope is done by testing and more importantly by direct comparison,.. which one feels better (and why!) Eventually you will build & tune a kite to your liking and if you do it in a group project setting, than more people can appreciate/comment on your changes, since the modifications can no longer be your own strictly personal choices. Does everyone think that change is an improvement? Great, than incorporate it and move on to the next objective.

The Zen has taken almost all of the challenge and pleasure away from a guy like me! All the testing and prototype building was done already. It's all tuned SWEET and flies like it was remote controlled. You want to talk about "pasted in the sky"? This kite waits like a well trained dog for you next command. Where's the fun? I don't have to (or get to!) play around and see how I can improve it? My favorite old faithful B-Series SUPER Super SUL will always have a place in my heart, but the zen does the same job easier, NOT faster, though you can still flail. My 1.5s had a decade of personal tuning and experimenting on them.
Comparison?
I have a REV 1 with 2 wraps also, mine is a 13 colonies masterpiece,.... there is NO comparison between the two models in my opinion.

A better comparison of flight dynamics and tactile response is the 1.5 B-Series Pro vs the steroids-loaded overmuscled too large for retail Zen. (it is a Bee++++++++!)
Visual difference between the Rev1 and a Zen?
There is a lot more sail area in the center, fabric pieces are biase oriented for stretch, the down-spars are repositioned more towards the center, there's a very pronounced curve built into the leading edge and the whole thing was made by one guy who's pride shows across every item leaving his studio (unless Ben turns 'em into banners that is<LOL!> ) I have half a dozen of Bazzer's kites and each one is like a loved child of mine.

I'm not a sponsored flyer, in fact I pay OVERretail thanks to my smart-mouthed comments.

conclusion?
The Zen is worth the money if you are seriously into this forum, hobby, addiction, pasttime activity called revolution flying. It's low end wind range is below 1 mile per hour and I have flown it when conditions were well outside of it's designed parameters, like 18 mph, (over on the sides, not in the center of power!!!!) The Zen flies indoors also, in case you do want to slow things down even more.

Is it different enough to warrant the expense?
It is Revolution's best model ever, like it was designed specifically for me, (it was built for me alone thanks Ben, Lolly and Bazzer)
You will love every minute of it (or you can resell it to someone else)

#6 glider

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 05:01 PM

John, I'll take you up on that sometime unless I decide to just go for it and buy one soon. I don't want to regret buying it and from both your comments it appears that I won't. Thanks for the info guys.



Or you can look me up if you're in town. I have one of each; Rev 1 and Zen. I look forward to a little side-by-side comparison too.
Dave
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#7 Kitelife

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 05:47 PM

Just posted this Zen video, shows how crisp and maneuverable it is compared to the Rev 1.



Filmed in 0-2 mph, all natural film speed (no fast/slow). ;)

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#8 Mitch

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 12:34 AM

This is what I long to do with my Zen. Low wind precision! It's one thing to do it with a B pro in a 8 mph breeze. But I suspect there must be some magical spell you put on the kite! It can't all be tipping the handles and pulling them back to keep lift on the upside wing. I've got my Zen. Please tell me and the other newbies that this is an obtainable level of skill for us mortals. Maybe I just need to find a dock.
Mitch

#9 Kitelife

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 12:38 AM

It's all about frame flexing (profile under power), loading (filling the sail), line tension, gliding and carrying inertia (momentum in/out of turns).

Nothing magical, just applied knowledge. ;)

John Barresi

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#10 Baloo

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 01:17 AM

And dont forget the "not being too proud to show a blooper at the end"

Love the vid John. I see me there with the same skill as you.

Only on thing I need to get that good, practice, practice, practice, then more practice.

It is easy for any of us to get the same tools in the Rev kites that are available. All you need is the time and dedication to get that little bit better each Day.

A dedication I will admit that I do not have. OK I can fly, I fly for fun, and that odd Day that it all go's right. I have all the tools, just not the skill to make best use of them.

There are so many folks that are an inspiration to me, all over the World. Please have a personal thanks from me. Many of you who I have never even met.

Also I am sure we are all an inspiration to the likes of JB, iQuad, Jo, Ben, TFS, Decs etc, etc. If it was not for newbies picking the handles up, who would the better fliers have to inspire?

Goodness, that is a bit DEEP for me. :)

#11 david ellison

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 01:29 AM

Quality video John and TK. A great product endorsement :)

#12 Madquad

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 06:49 AM

Nice one Johnny Blaze !!!!!!


Can't wait to fly a Zen too !

It's not the size of your Rev.. its how you use it.
Seven days without flying a Rev makes one weak.


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#13 Remmie

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 07:11 AM

Nice video of a great kite and dito pilot.
Awesome


Can't wait to fly a Zen too !


My idea Marc Posted Image

#14 stroke survivor

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 09:52 AM

Awesome video JB!!! Question - How long were your lines ? I've got a set of 40's I made when short lines were all the rage-more room at festivals!! How would you compare a 1.5 SUL to a Zen?? Thanks for your info!!:blue-grin:

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#15 Kitelife

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 10:05 AM

The lines in that video are 30' of 50#.

SUL 1.5 vs Zen, both great light wind kites... 1.5 is more agile, Zen creates more pressure but is slower.

Lots of other good comparative discussions here on the forum already. ;)

John Barresi

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#16 stroke survivor

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 10:44 AM

The lines in that video are 30' of 50#.

SUL 1.5 vs Zen, both great light wind kites... 1.5 is more agile, Zen creates more pressure but is slower.

Lots of other good comparative discussions here on the forum already. ;)


Thanks for the info!! My 40's are 150# cut down from the 100' supplied with the kite!! Just frustrated with setting up and then having the wind die!!:kid_brooding: Dreaming of adding something light - weight to cover as many wind conditions as possible!!:blue_wink:

wayne from portland
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#17 REVflyer

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 11:52 AM

lighten your grip on the handles, think gently holding a baby chick not squeezing the life out of an angry cobra!

Try to hold it just with the index finger and your thumb, nothing else. You should be all relaxed too!!!

Now when you add energy you need to apply it smoothly, not all jerky and dumping the air pressure indiscriminately. Two minor steps backwards are better than falling down suddenly.

You might try longer throw handles, many of us use them to great advantage as conditions get more and more demanding. An inch of thumb movement on long throw handles transmits into a complete flip inside-out at the kite's sail. Less movement by the pilot means we can fly longer before we're all tuckered out!

I don't like lines under 90# unless its a set of 120 footers and every one of us is on 50 lb LPG, otherwise those finer braids&weights tangle too easily. 50's all all mushy and the difference in drag between the two isn't worth the hassle of a tangled-up mess in my lines.

Add more DOWN in your tuning, although this advice seems counter productive for forward flight in tough conditions, in fact you are "squaring the sail" to receive the maximum amount of what little air pressure is available. When in doubt always add DOWN first!

Practice the light wind techniques until they are second nature,... that's the Archer move & the leading edge down field recovery move. Turning down at the window's edge is using gravity for an assist, think about your objectives! If you want to balance on a fence post you'll have to set-up for it. You'll have to approach your target from behind it, so as you add energy (walk backwards as an example) as you are getting closer to your goal.

Make certain everything is in excellent shape, even you!!! Do some stretches and deep breathing, take frequent sit-down breaks, push some non-adult beverages thru the body.

Enjoy the challenge, it's worth the trouble to master the toughest conditions. Quads can fly when everybody else must watch. Be the show!

#18 Felix Mottram

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 12:32 PM

lighten your grip on the handles, think gently holding a baby chick not squeezing the life out of an angry cobra!
<snip>
Enjoy the challenge, it's worth the trouble to master the toughest conditions. Quads can fly when everybody else must watch. Be the show!


I have identified the light wind situation where I am flying with no opposition grip on the handles. The sail pressure supports the 'light weight' (titanium? handles) against the middle three fingers held in a horizontal position.

The handles can roll against the fingers in order to keep the forward/brake balance in alignment.

'Be the show' indeed...

Felix

#19 stroke survivor

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 09:33 PM

Thanks for the info!!:blue_wink: Need to work on light wind techniques for sure!! I have an older Rev 1, should I consider 2 wrap or a Race frame to lighten things up, or just work on skills??:kid_loved:

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