190 replies to this topic

[Felix Mottram]

I think the idea is becoming more and more clear. It has to be organized and there has to be goals or tests. It's not being elite anymore than the driver'd test as Brian suggests.

Bart

Bart,

Quite right. We need to know that the fliers know the rules of the road and will abide by them in their own interests.

We might be able to avoid actual tests....

Felix

[bartman]

I say again, just in general to the masses, not in reply to anyone. Think of the BIG picture that full out organizing/requirements bring.

You might be watching just your own kite in that mess, but think of the BIG PICTURE as to where this will lead down the road.

Bart

Edited by bartman, 30 December 2009 - 02:18 PM.

[Kitelife]

I think at some point, it's going to be rather self-policing as well...

A few dozen folks who worked hard to get where they are, able to fly on the squad, won't put up with folks who "don't quite have it yet".

The trick is to lay out the knowledge and standards clearly enough that it's not a personal issue, and that everyone handles such situations tactfully, with regard.

We had a couple of such occasions pop up during the Portsmouth and Bristol flies...

In both cases, the corrective action could have been a bit more polite, and the way it was received could have been a bit more grown-up as well, hand in hand.

[sammy]

I think this is a huge issue and it comes up alot!

1 you have some people who dont really know how to team fly but they dont want to be the loaner and stand out while everyone else who can do it so they jump right in.


2 There are other people who know they cant do it so they sit out and dont bother with it.

3 Then u have others who know they cant but there ego says WTF duh i can fly and watch me do team and wam bam tangle and they sit back and say that wasnt my fault.

4 and then there are the fliers who keep pushing people into mega flys to ge them started and all hell brakes losse and all the people who went in now have a ego boost and the next time they dont think twice if they can do it bc they said well i did it once so i am good enough.


So clearly this is going to be super hard to go after and just have to pray it all goes well.

[Felix Mottram]

I think this is a huge issue and it comes up alot!

1 you have some people who dont really know how to team fly but they dont want to be the loaner and stand out while everyone else who can do it so they jump right in.
2 There are other people who know they cant do it so they sit out and dont bother with it.
3 Then u have others who know they cant but there ego says WTF duh i can fly and watch me do team and wam bam tangle and they sit back and say that wasnt my fault.
4 and then there are the fliers who keep pushing people into mega flys to ge them started and all hell brakes losse and all the people who went in now have a ego boost and the next time they dont think twice if they can do it bc they said well i did it once so i am good enough.

So clearly this is going to be super hard to go after and just have to pray it all goes well.

Hi Sammy,

Back in my school/college days I was presented with a notion of a balance of process where apparently diametrically opposed notions had to be held in balance in order to proceed forward. I did not understand the practicalities then or even possibly now.

However, as I have intimated elsewhere in this thread, somehow we have to motivate people who are apparently on opposite sides of a diametrically opposed divide and MAKE them move in a positive direction.

I will leave it at that with the rider that 'we can succeed'...

Best wishes

Felix

[andelscott]

I think this is a huge issue and it comes up alot!

<snip>

Ah, human nature and diversity - don't ya just love it?

JB is right on the issues of 'personnel management' and 'expectation management'. The important issue is making sure there is a very clear (and communicated) vision of what the MegaTeam is all about. The roles and responsibilities of all participants must be clearly understood and accepted for everyone's sakes and sanity. There is but one shot (typically) due to the time to organise and get everyone up in the air. Audiences have a short attention span and festival time constraints can be crippling - even at the end of the day.

But regular and ad-hoc fly-ins are a great boiler room for skills - Bri mentioned Ainsdale, then there is the NJ crew, and so forth. What better way of developing skills than flying with friends (and as many as you can find!), but without the added pressures of audiences and a "world record attempt"?

Pity the sole flyer out in, say, Utah or Inverness-shire without a team within several hundred miles (hey, I'm just guessing and plucking a state and county out of the hat) - how can we reach out to them to inspire and encourage - and ultimately prepare them for successful assimilation into the collective? <Uh-oh! - think I've been watching too much Star Trek...>

Perhaps we need more "distance learning" products - simple videos on how to form the grid - tricks and gotchas, like (hypothetically):

• "avoid having the ten foot tall, six foot wide guy (or girl) in the front";
• "flyer furthest forward is bottom of the column";
• "don't stand immediately behind the flyer in front, but slightly zig-zag";
• "no snag handles are great, but try not to snag your lines on another flyer's ears or hat".

I'm going to enjoy reading the fruits of this thread - whether or not I ever get to a MegaTeam event.

[Felix Mottram]

I say again, just in general to the masses, not in reply to anyone. Think of the BIG picture that full out organizing/requirements bring.

You might be watching just your own kite in that mess, but think of the BIG PICTURE as to where this will lead down the road.

Bart

Bart,

If everyone holds their kite still there is no problem at all. Indeed, I am planning presentations where the flying space is determined by the dimensions of the kite - no more.

The flier will need to rotate the kite at 1 degree intervals on a precise count. The clock is ticking....

Felix

OK <grins>

[Kitelife]

Felix, you're positively mad... Keep it coming.

[Felix Mottram]

Felix, you're positively mad... Keep it coming.

Hey JB,

I'm 'positive'.

There are serious issues that we need to deal with.

Everything I do is 'in context' with those issues in my own perception and capabilities. Lightness of touch may be appropriate on occasions... How lightly do you need to hold those lines?

Nothing personal!

Felix

[Felix Mottram]

Ah, human nature and diversity - don't ya just love it?

JB is right on the issues of 'personnel management' and 'expectation management'. The important issue is making sure there is a very clear (and communicated) vision of what the MegaTeam is all about. The roles and responsibilities of all participants must be clearly understood and accepted for everyone's sakes and sanity. There is but one shot (typically) due to the time to organise and get everyone up in the air. Audiences have a short attention span and festival time constraints can be crippling - even at the end of the day.

But regular and ad-hoc fly-ins are a great boiler room for skills - Bri mentioned Ainsdale, then there is the NJ crew, and so forth. What better way of developing skills than flying with friends (and as many as you can find!), but without the added pressures of audiences and a "world record attempt"?

Pity the sole flyer out in, say, Utah or Inverness-shire without a team within several hundred miles (hey, I'm just guessing and plucking a state and county out of the hat) - how can we reach out to them to inspire and encourage - and ultimately prepare them for successful assimilation into the collective? <Uh-oh! - think I've been watching too much Star Trek...>

Perhaps we need more "distance learning" products - simple videos on how to form the grid - tricks and gotchas, like (hypothetically):

• "avoid having the ten foot tall, six foot wide guy (or girl) in the front";
• "flyer furthest forward is bottom of the column";
• "don't stand immediately behind the flyer in front, but slightly zig-zag";
• "no snag handles are great, but try not to snag your lines on another flyer's ears or hat".

I'm going to enjoy reading the fruits of this thread - whether or not I ever get to a MegaTeam event.

Hey Andy,

We are thinking in terms of addressing the issues that you are referring to. It looks like a practical proposal will be in place soon.

Then I can get some sleep...

Felix

[terry w]

I say again, just in general to the masses, not in reply to anyone. Think of the BIG picture that full out organizing/requirements bring.

You might be watching just your own kite in that mess, but think of the BIG PICTURE as to where this will lead down the road.

Bart

so much analyzing ... jump in... do your very best... learn something new ... if you screw up thats part of the fun remember it is really all about having fun
don't try to pre think what might happen ... LISTEN to the leader and it will all work out ... hopefully !

terry w
ISLAND QUAD

[Love2fly]

Hi Guys-

I totally understand the concerns of both new team flyers vs. the needs of a group in a super mega fly. A pilot definitely needs to be able to achieve certain skills in order to become part of the team. In any sport, be it MLB, the NFL or whatever, if you're skills are not up to the level expected, you are not going to play. How many times do we see a professional baseball player in a major hitting slump get benched? or a pitcher that can't find the plate, pulled from the game? These guys that are benched, get extra hitting practice or whatever is necessary to improve.

Here's a few suggestions that I always give new team flyers: When we fly alone, we think that we can fly great (we're not following anyone in that big window to evaluate our control). Then, when we need to follow in a team environment, some realize that they can't follow in a straight line, that they don't have a "handle on their brakes", and that slow, controlled speed thing, well...what's that? I highly recommend that you try to fly your kite following whatever you see on the horizon. So, if there's a tree, try to fly along the outside edge of it. If there's a building, just try to follow it as if you are drawing it with one of the tips. This will give you great control, following lines, and flying in all parts of the window. It's a drill that will definitely help develop your basic team skills. Hope this helps those sort of on the fence about the team thing. Once you see that you are in control of your kite, you will easily fit right into the team experience; and have more confidence to know you are, indeed, in control!

I know we are not "Pros" in the same league as the NBA, NFL, etc., but as a young sport, represented all over the world, we need to act professionally as a collective group. So, if there is someone that it trying, but honestly, is having a bad day or just can't cut it, they have to understand that the 60, 70 or however many other pilots still have a job to do. It's not a personal attack and you will have your time to shine. It's a tough pill to swallow, but if there's a major wipeout due to a lack of skills, the time it takes to regroup can cost the entire team. We have to think about the spectatators, too. They don't want to watch a big cluster&%$* get untangled!

.... just my .02 cents....

[Kitelife]

The other realization of course, is that I've seen even the best pilots go screwy when surrounded by a couple dozen other pilots.

Peripheral activity, losing your kite, varying speeds around you, other pilots who lose control momentarily, all of these facets (and more) can rattle even a capable pilot.

Scaling up is the way to go, start small (team), grow (small mega team of 12), expand (grid of 16 = 4x4) and so on.

It's really not that hard when you measure the facts, but all of the factors, it's best to layer on the knowledge like making a good stable cake.

[Jynx]

Sounding off, still a newbie when it comes to group mega fly's...

I have personally witnessed incidents where a flier, who should NOT be flying in a mega situation, does and causes problems for the group. Yet, if they were told they were "not good enough" to join-in, it would not only ruin their day but also cause them heartache, a feeling of rejection, and may likely affect their future try's.

I know when to sit-out... and if asked to do so, it wouldn't bother me in the least. I know my strengths and limitations, mega flying is NOT one of my strengths, hopefully someday it will be.

The point I'm trying to make is: I agree with somehow certifying mega fliers for obvious reasons... but I feel you'll have to find a way to accomplish the task being careful not to break anyone's spirit.

It's difficult to become accomplished at anything without many attempts, and mistakes along the way. I hate to hear anyone say (or think) "forget-it, I give-up!"

Good Luck!

[Kitelife]

I just whipped a couple of very rough, quick diagrams to show how the grid works...

25 pilots, 5 columns of 5... Kites as seen from behind, bodies as seen from above:


One column of 5, as seen from the side:


If you had any doubts of the basic knowledge required, I trust it's dawning now... And remember, this has already been done successfully with 50+ kites, more than once.

Also bear in mind, the grid LOOKS far more complicated than it actually is, but this should serve to illustrate the need for standardized knowledge.

Very rough for sure, and the end product will be a bit more polished (with supporting verbiage and video) but this is just a taste of the diagrams and information that we'll be making available.

==

Now, to get the juices flowing... Translate these calls to the grid above:

• "Rows 1, 3 and 5, face right... Now."
• "Rows 2 and 4, face left... Now."
• "All kites, slow forward... Now."
• "All kites, 180 (or turn to face the other way)... Now."
• "All kites, fly back to columns... Now."

At any time, if it all goes south... "All kites back to grid... Now."

The beauty of this system is that everything can broken down into groups by points of reference... It's really just a matter of knowing what # row and column you're in.

The mathematics of the whole thing really does work better with an even number of rows and columns, i.e. 6x6, 8x8, as opposed to the 5x5 I'm showing here.

Again, using the diagram above:

• "Columns 1, 3 and 5 fly up while columns 2 and 4 reverse down... Now."
• "All kites back to grid... Now."
• "Center kite (3-3) hold position, kites immediately around the center kite face outward to form a ball... Now."
• "Outside kites (all of columns 1 and 5, all of rows 1 and 5) face outward to form a ball... Now."
• "On my call, the center kite will spin to trigger a slow burst by both balls... Now."
• "All kites, slow reverse back to balls... Now."
• "And... Back to grid, now."

Crap, now I won't be able to sleep... Too much fun. <grin>

[big bri]

Just Consider.
All the Longstanding Clubs,Organisations,Members clubs.That are houshold names and work well as serious,credable structures.That keep going and have stood the tests of time

ALL HAVE

A Code to follow
A Membership Fees
A Handbook
A structure to develope members
The first thing also they ALL have,is sign here and commit to the code.Commitment by the members,,,,ALL OF THEM

Lets face it,you wouldnt turn up at Forest Hills.Dressed like Ged Clampit,never played before and exspect to hit a -10 round and not pay for the round also
or
Decide ya wana drive,happen along to Brandshatch,point at an F1 and expect to just do it.

A Handbook is a start point.Outline the Goal in that Handbook.Then commit as a member.Personally,i would not mind a small joining fee to cover admin/handbook costs.

BRIAN...

[Felix Mottram]

Just Consider.
<snip>
A Handbook is a start point.Outline the Goal in that Handbook.Then commit as a member.Personally,i would not mind a small joining fee to cover admin/handbook costs.

BRIAN...

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your post. This certainly seems the the way forward...

So much was un-spoken. Then you find that folks just have not fully grasped the concept.

The 'Up North...' crew were pretty clued up though...

Felix

[Felix Mottram]

I just whipped a couple of very rough, quick diagrams to show how the grid works...
<snip>
Crap, now I won't be able to sleep... Too much fun. <grin>

JB,

Nice work...

Careful with the line lengths!

Felix

[big bri]

Hi Felix
I beleive so.Commitment to the cause and goal for Team and personal improvment.

Rainbows,brownies
beavers,cubs,scouts
They all have a CODE of practice and Goal.Every Organisation does that works.

Join the Scouts,thers rules,a code,a fee and improvment structure.
Join the local golf club,knitting circle,model club or anything.They all have a Code,Handbook of rules and a FEE.

I think a small Handbook for each member.Which outlines the Code is a must personally.Then all understand the structures.Whats exspected.How to improve,get involved.

WHY JOIN any club,organisation....
Simple realy,it intrests you and you wana learn with like minded people.Learn from more experienced people and then pass it on.

WHY Have a Handbook,code.
Again its simple,then all members know what the rules of the road are and it also COMMITTS people to the goals and code.Nothing HEAVY,just explains what the jobs about and how they can play an active part,while improving the global community of kite flyers.A Handbook has a certain,,,Official,seriousness i know,but it wouldnt ask for BLOOD BROTHERS TIES,just a members handbook and commitment.Which keeps track of numbers and informs of the goals

A good starting place i think

As for the lads up North,,,,,,,THEY LUV IT,,,,SIMPLE

Have a goodn all

BRIAN...

[Harrier]

Now, to get the juices flowing... Translate these calls to the grid above:

• "Rows 1, 3 and 5, face right... Now."
• "Rows 2 and 4, face left... Now."
• "All kites, slow forward... Now."
• "All kites, 180 (or turn to face the other way)... Now."
• "All kites, fly back to columns... Now."

At any time, if it all goes south... "All kites back to grid... Now."

The beauty of this system is that everything can broken down into groups by points of reference... It's really just a matter of knowing what # row and column you're in.

The mathematics of the whole thing really does work better with an even number of rows and columns, i.e. 6x6, 8x8, as opposed to the 5x5 I'm showing here.

Again, using the diagram above:

• "Columns 1, 3 and 5 fly up while columns 2 and 4 reverse down... Now."
• "All kites back to grid... Now."
• "Center kite (3-3) hold position, kites immediately around the center kite face outward to form a ball... Now."
• "Outside kites (all of columns 1 and 5, all of rows 1 and 5) face outward to form a ball... Now."
• "On my call, the center kite will spin to trigger a slow burst by both balls... Now."
• "All kites, slow reverse back to balls... Now."
• "And... Back to grid, now."

Crap, now I won't be able to sleep... Too much fun. <grin>

You best get that sleep if you dont want to cause others to get brain ache too.

Cos where are you numbering from and which are columns and which are rows?... Or ....could it be we just guess and fly it anyway.