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#121 bartman

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 10:51 AM

Bart

Brilliant post.

You are totally on the case and even at this distance I have every confidence that you have every capability to step up to the mark and deliver.

Your attitude is exemplary and your peers should offer every encouragement in the unlikely event that anything goes slightly wrong on the day.

Felix


That is very kind of you.

I have to take a shot at my buddy Cowboy now. If he can do it this year at WSIKF then I can. He is far, far more reckless than me....


The first thing that came to mind for me was the physical toll such an event could take. I think I read they were 2 hours during one of big mega fly. Regardless of how much I practice or "good" I get, I would have to disqualify myself because I couldn't stand with the kite in the air for that long. It's not the kind of thing you can just say "My back hurts I need a break". Just a bit more to think about. I know it was the first thing that came to my head.
Posted Image


Oh, yeah, I see that point. I can stand in a field for hours flying around, but find it painful to hold anything for a long time. I would think, though, that if these events were planned carefully (everyone listens, no screwing around, people who do not have the skills already removed during some kind of "audition" previously, the routine planned before even starting and whatever else checks and balances dreamt up), should it not go faster?

Bart

#122 Felix Mottram

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:11 AM

That is very kind of you.

I have to take a shot at my buddy Cowboy now. If he can do it this year at WSIKF then I can. He is far, far more reckless than me....

Oh, yeah, I see that point. I can stand in a field for hours flying around, but find it painful to hold anything for a long time. I would think, though, that if these events were planned carefully (everyone listens, no screwing around, people who do not have the skills already removed during some kind of "audition" previously, the routine planned before even starting and whatever else checks and balances dreamt up), should it not go faster?

Bart


Hi Bart,

You are totally on the nail with your 'observations' which is why 'we' would be confident about giving you every encouragement to sign up... You are spelling out """everyone listens, no screwing around, people who do not have the skills already removed during some kind of "audition" previously,""" precisely the the concerns that need to be addressed.

Thanks

Felix

#123 glider

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:17 AM

I was composing something for the open forum but given the above I think maybe it is not appropriate, PM on it's way soon.



Great topic. My comments are on there way to JB. I'm sure he's thought of most of the stuff, but maybe my take as a relative newbie will help, being from a different point of view.

In brief:
1. Determine the goal of the mega-fly: break a record (all hands on deck), or Wow the crowd (ala Portsmouth 2008), or please the event organizers (minimal time and space requirements with only the most competent pilots)
2. Acknowledge site limitations: Safety considerations, field size, wind conditions, time limitations, access to PA system
3. Pre-flight: Pre-registration? (think Kite Party), set times for the mega-fly and meetings, squad leader meeting (mandatory?), flyers meeting, who's the boss
4. Basics for flyers during set-up: Own thy parking spot, stay with your handles, cut the chatter, pay attention.

Looking forward to the outcome/process.

Dave
Portland, OR

Edited by glider, 30 December 2009 - 11:29 AM.


#124 Felix Mottram

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:25 AM

Great topic. My comments are on there way to JB. I'm sure he's thought of most of the stuff, but maybe my take as a relative newbie will help, being from a different point of view.

In brief:
1. Determine the goal of the mega-fly: break a record (all hands on deck), or Wow the crowd (ala Portsmouth 2008), or please the event organizers (minimal time and space requirements with only the most competent pilots)
2. Acknowledge site limitations: Safety considerations, field size, wind conditions, time limitations, access to PA system
3. Pre-flight: Pre-registration? (think Kite Party), set times for the mega-fly and meetings, squad leader meeting (mandatory?), flyers meeting, who's the boss
4. Basics for flyers during set-up: Own thy parking spot, stay with your handles, cut the chatter, pay attention.

Looking for to the outcome/process.

Dave
Portland, OR


Hi Dave,

Good points... Everything requires 'acute' attention by the participants but we need to get them to acknowledge this at the outset!

Thanks

Felix

#125 bartman

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:41 AM

The age old problem. How do you enforce anything on anyone who is basically just doing it for fun?

We had this problem in another local organization I belonged to. People weren't getting paid, you couldn't fire them so they did what they wanted to fullfill their idea of "fun". It really didn't matter to them that their fun took away from the fun of the majority of the group.

Bart

#126 Kitelife

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:47 AM

Bart, you've hit on it exactly.

At the moment, those of us "in the saddle" are torn, trying to find the balanced answer somewhere between "certification by review" and "self-certification"...

The plain answer hasn't revealed itself entirely yet, as there are two very key factors involved in each:

1. If we certify by review, we could assure a caliber of pilot, but it's a form of control and approval, one way or another.
2. If we allow self-certification, there will ultimately be those who aren't honest, with themselves, or others, but it would signify freedom.

As you've gathered by now, the down side to both of these strike deeply in our hearts, as do the up sides.

I'm hungry to hear more input on these specific points... The curriculum and standards will almost build themselves, but this issue (above) is most difficult.

John Barresi

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#127 Felix Mottram

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:53 AM

The age old problem. How do you enforce anything on anyone who is basically just doing it for fun?

We had this problem in another local organization I belonged to. People weren't getting paid, you couldn't fire them so they did what they wanted to fullfill their idea of "fun". It really didn't matter to them that their fun took away from the fun of the majority of the group.

Bart


Hi Bart,

This whole thread is about addressing those issues. I think that we are getting close to a consensus as to how to take things forward with all the fliers 'on board'.

I believe that the scale of the group is working to our advantage.

I also think that there is a certain 'spirit' in the Kite Flying community that will allow us to transcend 'local' difficulties.

Felix

#128 bartman

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:23 PM

I'll be bold and say that "self" doesn't wash with me. I think leading up to the big grid there has to be some small grids to recruit. You can self evaluate yourself to the point of signing up and feeling confident then it goes to the small grid audition for the final call.

Personally, it would drive me crazy to have to piss around for two or more hours just to get something in the air for 10 or 15 minutes.

Seriously, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. No one needs to be rude about it, but in the end everyone will see the benefits of this and just think of the quality (maybe not the best word, but you get it) that mega-flys will demonstrate. Wow.

I'll take it further. You want to be part of the mega-fly so you work and work to pass that audition that you failed last time. In the end you end up with better pilots with better skills to form bigger and better things in the future. I know it would give me something to get off my butt more and work on my hovers!

Bart

#129 Kitelife

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:30 PM

That's my primary sentiment as well, but it's been proven that the true spirit of 'official' certification (and the fairness that will be applied) may not be understood by everyone, it brings a whole host of problems unto itself.

John Barresi

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youtube.com/kitelife | facebook.com/kitelifemagazine | KiteLife on Google+

 

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(found in a fortune cookie - possibly an Einstein quote)

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#130 Felix Mottram

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:33 PM

Personally, it would drive me crazy to have to piss around for two or more hours just to get something in the air for 10 or 15 minutes.

Bart


Bart,

I probably would not last 5 minutes. We need to be organised...

Felix

#131 bartman

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:36 PM

True, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I just watched Wrath of Kahn last night again. It is fresh in my mind.

Anything worthwhile is going to have its share of growing pains. This is no exception.

Just do it. Everyone knows in their heart that it is the right way to go.

Bart

#132 Felix Mottram

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:41 PM

<snip>

Just do it. Everyone knows in their heart that it is the right way to go.

Bart


Bart,

From very very early days in The Decorators we had a catch phrase... It was 'Just do it'.

We realised that considered speculation was a waste of time and that the flier, seeing the team mate in close proximity would proceed accordingly...

Felix

#133 bartman

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:42 PM

Bart,

I probably would not last 5 minutes. We need to be organised...

Felix


I don't have the time or the patience to put up with big delays because people are screwing around or whatever. Not to mention the fact that it looks far more professional when something like this could be thrown together quick.

Bart

#134 Harrier

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:50 PM

Great topic. My comments are on there way to JB. I'm sure he's thought of most of the stuff, but maybe my take as a relative newbie will help, being from a different point of view.

In brief:
1. Determine the goal of the mega-fly: break a record (all hands on deck), or Wow the crowd (ala Portsmouth 2008), or please the event organizers (minimal time and space requirements with only the most competent pilots)
2. Acknowledge site limitations: Safety considerations, field size, wind conditions, time limitations, access to PA system
3. Pre-flight: Pre-registration? (think Kite Party), set times for the mega-fly and meetings, squad leader meeting (mandatory?), flyers meeting, who's the boss
4. Basics for flyers during set-up: Own thy parking spot, stay with your handles, cut the chatter, pay attention.

Looking forward to the outcome/process.

Dave
Portland, OR



Good post, spot on with the purpose of the Mega fly affecting participation.

One thing which is reflected in some posts is the lack of information on what might be actually expected of those who wish to take part in a Mega fly, for example if there is any information on grid formation, how the grid is actually formed up, quincunx or files, how long it can take, how to actually behaves in the grid (i.e. quit wandering around while flying is good) it has been well hidden.



Perhaps as much or even more focus here on the mechanics would be a greater help in encouraging more folk to participate after all it would be a lot easier for folk to assess their own capability if they knew what might be expected of them both on the ground and in the air, obviously it is not easy for others to accurately assess a fliers ability to take part till the flier has actually flown the large group stuff in front of them.

There is scope for plenty of information to be made available on recognised moves or routines for large groups to fly, this information might inspire potential fliers to give it a go.

Bart has a point re self-certification, one mans honest view of his own ability might be based on a standard that in itself is unclear.



Flying informal groups large or small with friends is fun, you can have as much or little as you want before going off to do your own thing.

Personally my flying is self indulgent and totally informal, I fly for my own pleasure and have no problem driving hundreds of miles to fly with friends but the formal stuff? "Herded cats", Nah, it has to be a lot more fun than that before I would travel more than a few yards.



One last thing a number of those who actually flew at Portsmouth and Bristol no longer seem to frequent this forum much, this is a shame, some way of reaching more Rev flying folk might need to be addressed if a reasonable number of International registered fliers are to be found.

#135 Felix Mottram

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 01:11 PM

Good post, spot on with the purpose of the Mega fly affecting participation.

One thing which is reflected in some posts is the lack of information on what might be actually expected of those who wish to take part in a Mega fly, for example if there is any information on grid formation, how the grid is actually formed up, quincunx or files, how long it can take, how to actually behaves in the grid (i.e. quit wandering around while flying is good) it has been well hidden.

Perhaps as much or even more focus here on the mechanics would be a greater help in encouraging more folk to participate after all it would be a lot easier for folk to assess their own capability if they knew what might be expected of them both on the ground and in the air, obviously it is not easy for others to accurately assess a fliers ability to take part till the flier has actually flown the large group stuff in front of them.

There is scope for plenty of information to be made available on recognised moves or routines for large groups to fly, this information might inspire potential fliers to give it a go.

Bart has a point re self-certification, one mans honest view of his own ability might be based on a standard that in itself is unclear.

Flying informal groups large or small with friends is fun, you can have as much or little as you want before going off to do your own thing.

Personally my flying is self indulgent and totally informal, I fly for my own pleasure and have no problem driving hundreds of miles to fly with friends but the formal stuff? "Herded cats", Nah, it has to be a lot more fun than that before I would travel more than a few yards.

One last thing a number of those who actually flew at Portsmouth and Bristol no longer seem to frequent this forum much, this is a shame, some way of reaching more Rev flying folk might need to be addressed if a reasonable number of International registered fliers are to be found.


Hi Harrier,

Your questions are completely pertinent...

I am here <grins>. Having expended an enormous amount of thought and energy on introducing the concept and helping to arrange the Portsmouth/Bristol events I am now trying to build on that experience and help develop a process by which we can encourage new fliers to acquire the skills necessary to take part in potential future events. That was the logic for starting this forum topic.

The conversation is ongoing and I cannot immediately deliver a complete solution. I hope that you will be able to take part in the coversation and will feel comfortable in making constructive contributions.

Best wishes

Felix

Edited by Felix Mottram, 30 December 2009 - 01:12 PM.


#136 bartman

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 01:14 PM

...

Personally my flying is self indulgent and totally informal, I fly for my own pleasure and have no problem driving hundreds of miles to fly with friends but the formal stuff? "Herded cats", Nah, it has to be a lot more fun than that before I would travel more than a few yards.


That goes back to your definition of fun. For me it would be fun to build my skills to the point of getting in on a mega-fly. I know that it would be some of my time during the "show" but only a bit before I could fly with my friends again informally.

For some, like you said, really not fun and that is okay to. Each to his own.

But, think of it this way too. Is the mega-fly not fun with your friends in some respect? For me I see the potential at WSIKF to fly with maybe a dozen or more people from this forum that I would consider my friends. It pumps me just to think of that!

I also figure that if I got the mad skills for a big f----'n grid then flying other patterns in a more traditional team size becomes all the more easier. Worth shooting for for me.

Bart

#137 Felix Mottram

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 01:19 PM

That goes back to your definition of fun. For me it would be fun to build my skills to the point of getting in on a mega-fly. I know that it would be some of my time during the "show" but only a bit before I could fly with my friends again informally.

For some, like you said, really not fun and that is okay to. Each to his own.

But, think of it this way too. Is the mega-fly not fun with your friends in some respect? For me I see the potential at WSIKF to fly with maybe a dozen or more people from this forum that I would consider my friends. It pumps me just to think of that!

I also figure that if I got the mad skills for a big f----'n grid then flying other patterns in a more traditional team size becomes all the more easier. Worth shooting for for me.

Bart


Bart,

I think that the skill set gained from flying in the grid is fantastically helpful in respect of 'normal' team flying.

I will say no more <grins>

Felix

#138 big bri

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 01:43 PM

Hello fellas,and Ladys,Merry Christmasto ya all.

A few years ago.As a pritty newish Rev pilot.Myself and a few pals wanted to get involved more with team,flying at events,festivals and the like.Without the help and guidence of MENTORS[Captains if ya like].Like Sue and S Hoath,JB,Simon D,Felix and more.This idea simply doesnt work at all.Ther needs tobe people with a clear vision of what the goal is.They dont all have tobe world class or ex world champs either.I got quite sick of waiting for some premadonnas at some events,who decided to get involved at the 11th hour and could.Just because of who they wher.I think this should be a members club or organised in such away.That everyone knows whats going on.DONT TRAIN or TAKE PART,,,YA DONT PLAY,,,SIMPLE.Thats my take anyways.

Also ther then needs tobe an outer ring of sergeants to further organise the corprals[Captains know who they are],who then motivate and inform the and privates.Once the structure of Rank[if ya like]is done and dusted.Then the goal has tobe broken down into segments and filtered through to anyone who wants tobe involved.People who wana join are prospects.Once joined they become privates.Before joining.They and everyone involved.Mustbe aware of what they are entering into.This structure will HELP,GUiDE AND ORGINISE anyone who wants to be involved and improve ther skill also.
I know its obvious,but the more organised somthing is.Then the easier the end result and bigger the success.Could also be quite Fun,if done in the correct spirit.
From here......
I would suggest its like passing a driving test.
When i flew[and others]at Portsmouth and Bristol Mega fly.I was quite confident i could hold my own and ther wher people ther to help.I can tell ya.After Child Birth[watching anyways],its the most nerve Jangling thing ive done or been part of and im a pritty confident guy.I can also say,i wouldnt have missed it for anything.
PRACTICE,PRACTICE AND PRACTICE is the key and being involved.Aswell as informed.

The TESTs should be broken into lets say 12 parts[or however many required].Each part or each step of the test.Mustbe passed while infront of or witnessed by a corpral[you tube is a medium also]When the private performs the Test.Once all parts are completed....JOBS A GOODN,they can then help others and keep practicing,BUT at some stage,be watched,accessed by a higher Rank.
Its i think a priority everyone is able to feel they can be involved.NO exclusivity,BUT.When entering into the commitment has tobe explained what the goals are.

A rating on here.Like we have would be fun,Captain,Sergeant,,,,,etc,etc
Privates could have the number after ther rank[private 4 would mean ther at level 4 or achieved task4]
This keeps everything visable and all contacts are easy to contact.
A Monthly post of Ranking should be enough to help keep track on progress of all and numbers.

When we did the Ainsdale Gathering.I took a leaf from Monks and posted some Tips on stuff like,,,,OWN THY HOVER,,,,,,LINE MANAGMENT,,,,,,.These Things ,the small but simple things and attention to detail.Help make stuff work well.

BRIAN...
Main thing is.This needs People to commit and take it seriously,but with a sence of fun,so all can get involved.

BRIAN...



#139 Felix Mottram

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 01:49 PM

<snip>

Main thing is.This needs People to commit and take it seriously,but with a sence of fun,so all can get involved.

BRIAN...


Hi Brian,

Absolutely agree on the 'Main thing...'

Best wishes

HNY

Felix

#140 bartman

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 01:56 PM

Hello fellas,and Ladys,Merry Christmasto ya all....

BRIAN...


I think the idea is becoming more and more clear. It has to be organized and there has to be goals or tests. It's not being elite anymore than the driver's test as Brian suggests.

Bart

Edited by bartman, 30 December 2009 - 01:58 PM.





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