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#81 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 02:58 AM

No argument with that Felix. To take this forward we probably need to hear the viewpoints of more of the key participants/co-ordinators. Either on or off-line. If there is general agreement that developing a structure and protocols for grid mega teams is the way to go then drafting and discussing those t&c's comes next.


JB is preparing a draft list of the T&Cs.

There is an element of 'due diligence' which I think is extremely important...

Felix

#82 andelscott

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 03:41 AM

JB is preparing a draft list of the T&Cs.

There is an element of 'due diligence' which I think is extremely important...


Whilst this might sound a bit heavy, I thoroughly agree it is necessary, not just for the overall effect, but for the enjoyment of all participants. As a 'good conditions' target participant, I'm in it for the enjoyment not stress!

Creating an agreed set of 'guidelines' to assist anyone brave (or foolish) enough to think of organising a megateam event for their event/festival should at least highlight the main risks and provide suggestions for mitigation. It would also provide a minimum framework, offering some credibility when suggesting the idea to festival organisers.

Equally important, it may help dissuade unrealistic or inappropriate aspirations at an early stage, where the resources:
  • secure space,
  • time for briefing, assembly, performance and break-down,
  • weather conditions
  • acoustics (incessant PA or fairground isn't conducive to hearing the calls over an extended area)
  • skill-base
  • pilot's equipment
are dangerously sub-optimal. Adrenalin alone probably isn't enough for a successful outcome... ;)
Andy

#83 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 05:35 AM

Whilst this might sound a bit heavy, I thoroughly agree it is necessary, not just for the overall effect, but for the enjoyment of all participants. As a 'good conditions' target participant, I'm in it for the enjoyment not stress!
<snip>


Thanks Andy. All good points for consideration.

Felix

#84 Stephen Hoath

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 09:04 AM

I'd like to see Stephen get in in these discussions as well, he's been strangely absent for a while now.

Sorry for my lack of input on this one so far guys, i have been on an imposed sabbatical. 6 days with the In-Laws i can deal with, but 6 days without kites or a decent internet connection! :blink:

There were a great many things that went well in the Portsmouth/Bristol mass flies and a lot of lessons learnt also. Individual flying skills and wind conditions were major factors but the overwhelming positive attitude of the fliers was the most important factor. A general desire to succeed and be part of something special was one of the biggest contributions to the success. (oh and my great calling)

For my part, this is what i see IROR helping with. Giving us all enough information in advance of an event on what to expect and what we need to be able to do should lead us to even greater success than before. I only learnt to fly a Rev because Ian let me play with his new and expensive toy. This is a circumstance similar to many. IROR can be about doing this but on a different level.

So, the more of you that put up an opinion, the better the outcome will be. I am more interested in the opinions of people who try big teams for the first time or are new than of the existing team fliers.

I look forward to hearing from you all. B)

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#85 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 09:22 AM

<snip>
So, the more of you that put up an opinion, the better the outcome will be. I am more interested in the opinions of people who try big teams for the first time or are new than of the existing team fliers.
I look forward to hearing from you all. B)


Stephen,

Elsewhere in the ongoing discussions it has been noted that 'more experienced pilots' may have to be obliged, not only to 'stick to the rules', but also to 'make allowances' for those pilots who may be slightly less capable and to assist them where appropriate.

Felix

#86 Kitelife

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 10:27 AM

Welcome back Stephen, you're a welcome sight... I'm just now up and about, moving on to the other topics now.

John Barresi

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#87 Love2fly

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 11:40 AM

Hi Guys-

Very interesting thread.

Even though the grid format had been posted and discussed long before WSIKF, there were many folks who still had no concept of it. There needs to be some sort of format where the pilots can see what kind of line up is expected; long before gathering for the fly. If they have an idea of what's expected, than JB or whomever, will not physically have to place people in their row/columns. That took a long time and for those that were in position early on, I'm sure their attention span waned. Perhaps a preflight meeting with a printout of the format, very early in the week could be helpful.


As far as ability, John, you have discussed formats of evaluating a pilot's ability. This was not, and is not intended to say who's better than the next, but for reasons such as a Mega Fly of mega proportions. Bart has questioned what skills he needs to be able join in the mega fly (comfortably). If there is a checklist of sorts, one can know exactly how qualified they are. Then, there's no question of "can I do this?" I guess it would serve a dual purpose, as then there are specific goals to reach for each individual; if so inclined. Again, this would not be intended for the purpose of saying who's superior to whom.
I hope this makes sense.
Laura
 
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#88 Kitelife

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 11:54 AM

Hi Guys-

Very interesting thread.

Even though the grid format had been posted and discussed long before WSIKF, there were many folks who still had no concept of it. There needs to be some sort of format where the pilots can see what kind of line up is expected; long before gathering for the fly. If they have an idea of what's expected, than JB or whomever, will not physically have to place people in their row/columns. That took a long time and for those that were in position early on, I'm sure their attention span waned. Perhaps a preflight meeting with a printout of the format, very early in the week could be helpful.

All of this is indeed under development between Felix, Mr Hoath and myself as we speak... If any of you know Stephen or myself well as mega team coordinators, along with Felix's immeasurable experience and organizational skills, you know the tools and guidelines we're putting together will be as fair, inclusive and empowering as possible for everyone.

Ideals:

1. Identify the standards required for LARGE mega fly participation.
2. Make those standards available and achievable through resources, checklists and curriculum.
3. Ensure those standards are balanced between practicality and inclusiveness.
4. Identify a leading body of pilots who have the background to effectively organize and maintain LARGE mega flies.

In speaking with Stephen and Felix, we've fairly well established that the IROR guidelines will almost exclusively come into effect in groups of 30 pilots or more (at which point safety and effectiveness are real tangible factors), although it's already obvious that the benefits and standards set forth will have significant beneficial effects for ALL teams and team fliers in groups of any size simply due to the clear and present information that will become available.

Tentatively, we'll be "opening the doors" to IROR discussions and participation sometime in the next 2-3 weeks after the recognized "faculty" (proven veteran LARGE mega team organizers and coordinators) have laid the groundwork.

Remember as well, please, this is NOT an attempt at government, all things will be up for discussion, evolution and adjustment.

For the purposes of efficiency and practicality, the foundation and initial set of guidelines does need to be laid by those with the most hands on experience in LARGE mega team management... Not everything will be right straight out of the gate, but we're ready for that too. :)

As far as ability, John, you have discussed formats of evaluating a pilot's ability. This was not, and is not intended to say who's better than the next, but for reasons such as a Mega Fly of mega proportions. Bart has questioned what skills he needs to be able join in the mega fly (comfortably). If there is a checklist of sorts, one can know exactly how qualified they are. Then, there's no question of "can I do this?" I guess it would serve a dual purpose, as then there are specific goals to reach for each individual; if so inclined. Again, this would not be intended for the purpose of saying who's superior to whom.
I hope this makes sense.

Makes tons of sense, no argument at all... This is among our ideals.

Just to provide some insight into the level of consideration, the idea of "star" (1, 2, 3) ratings came up and was ultimately not included due to the "classing" of pilots that would ensue... This isn't our goal, furthest from it.

At this time, it looks like we'll have a simple and slightly broader "on/off" certification based on a given set of skills (which will be published for all to use, study and learn)... Outside of this, the primary mega team coordinator on any given day will have the executive ability to have pilots stand down in conditions which render them ineffective... This will of course be done with tact, and the understanding that assistance and education will be available to help such pilots succeed in the future, or even later on any same given day.

John Barresi

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#89 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 11:54 AM

Hi Guys-

Very interesting thread.

<snip>


One of the key things is that we need fliers of 'equal' capability. The better able need to exhibit patience and encourage the less able to a higher plane.

Felix

#90 Kitelife

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 12:02 PM

One of the key things is that we need fliers of 'equal' capability. The better able need to exhibit patience and encourage the less able to a higher plane.

*wild applause*

To borrow a phrase...

WE (ALL REV FLIERS) HAVE A DREAM

John Barresi

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#91 Love2fly

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 12:04 PM

The better able need to exhibit patience and encourage the less able to a higher plane.

Felix



Hi Felix-

Of course, that's required any time we fly team and is really what flying is all about- ultimately.
Laura
 
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#92 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 12:34 PM

Hi Felix-

Of course, that's required any time we fly team and is really what flying is all about- ultimately.


Hi Laura,

Thanks for your observations.

I am quite happy to keep on re-stating the basic concept.

I did have a 'dream'(idea) and wrote about it in 1993... In 2008 the idea was initially realised in a practical sense.

Getting the concept across to the un-initiated is an on-going concern. When I went to Uchinada in 2008 to meet with iQuad and the Japanese Rev teams I did not have the vocabulary to explain what I thought might be possible. Now we have scratched the surface it is apparent that many extraordinary things may occur* as fliers develop their collective* skills.

Felix

*Edits

Edited by Felix Mottram, 29 December 2009 - 12:39 PM.


#93 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 02:27 PM

Somewhat helpful, but as JB suggests, it will need to go into a new topic for more discussion. I'm deciding how to formulate one that will get to the heart of the questions I have.

Bart


Hi Bart,

Please let me know if you had previously seen this video:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qbCgPJ8LN4

Thanks

Felix

#94 Love2fly

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 03:01 PM

Hi Laura,



I did have a 'dream'(idea) and wrote about it in 1993... In 2008 the idea was initially realised in a practical sense.

Getting the concept across to the un-initiated is an on-going concern. When I went to Uchinada in 2008 to meet with iQuad and the Japanese Rev teams I did not have the vocabulary to explain what I thought might be possible. Now we have scratched the surface it is apparent that many extraordinary things may occur* as fliers develop their collective* skills.

Felix

*Edits


Hi Felix-
Your vision for the future of Mega Team flying is fantastic. With guys like you, Steve and JB paving the way, the future of team flying is quite bright. I'm quite excited to see where this goes.
Laura
 
*** Any day flying is a good day; have a great one! 
**** REVS: Fly it, you'll like it!
***** L.S.P. ... It's worth the trip!
 
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#95 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 03:15 PM

Hi Felix-
Your vision for the future of Mega Team flying is fantastic. With guys like you, Steve and JB paving the way, the future of team flying is quite bright. I'm quite excited to see where this goes.


Hi Laura,

We need to inspire the fliers to get on-board. Signing up to a Register of 'Revolution' (Mega) Team Fliers seemed to be an appropriate step on the way.

I hope that we will be able to deal with the administrative detail soon and get the show on the road.

Felix

#96 Jynx

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:26 PM

Felix ! Thnx for the link!

Hadn't seen that one.... AMAZED!

"When the power of love becomes more important than the love of power,

then there will be peace"

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#97 Kitelife

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:38 PM

Aye, the video Felix posted is a good example of exactly how demanding such a large scale mega fly can be.

Granted, there are often lots of other team exercises at events, both large and small that are more accessible, but something like was demonstrated in that video can only be accomplished with a certain degree of skill across the board. :)

John Barresi

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#98 bartman

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 07:26 PM

Hi Bart,

Please let me know if you had previously seen this video:-

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qbCgPJ8LN4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=1qbCgPJ8LN4[/url]

Thanks

Felix


I can say I would exclude myself from this based on this video. While the flight looked basic it becomes too complex with that many kites. The circles alone made my eyes big and I had a flash of anxiety at the thought of being in that. I need a safe escape route. Much more practice required for something like that. Thanks for posting.

Bart

#99 terry w

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 09:01 PM

ahhh bart
you did great in the swift current mega fly ( although it was some what smaller :lol: ) and you have had lots of practice since then so you will have no problem B)
its just bigger geometry ...
when you are in the midst of a mega fly you are focused on your own kite and its position, not 50 as in the video ... thats the leaders job ... heh heh :lol:
i have faith in ya brother
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#100 Kitelife

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 09:01 PM

Now bear in mind Bart, this is "big time" mega team... At WSIKF, this will account for a very small portion of 2-3 different days out of the whole week.

The rest is good old fashioned team and fun flying, really, truly accessible to folks at all levels. ;)

We also do a series of "scaled down" sessions, to introduce concepts like the one shown in that video.

All in all, it really is much easier than it looks... The move shown above is one of the hardest, and something we didn't have the combined skill to pull off at 2009 WSIKF.

When it's all said and done, remember, there's liable to be 1/2 a dozen people who aren't half as good as you are, trying to get to the same place... We're all family.

John Barresi

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