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International Register of 'Revolution' Team Fliers


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#61 Kitelife

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 09:08 PM

Somewhat helpful, but as JB suggests, it will need to go into a new topic for more discussion. I'm deciding how to formulate one that will get to the heart of the questions I have.

Looking forward to it Bart, truly... Our pleasure to help.

John Barresi

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#62 david ellison

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 03:15 AM

Hi all - I like the idea of building the grid up from smaller vertical units. The colour identifier via a wristband or some such could work well. It would also be sensible to give each person in a particular colour unit a number. So for example the fliers in the red unit might be numbered 1 at front (lowest kite in the sky) then 2,3,4,5, with 6 being the top kite. It would make sense for the number 6 flier to be nominated as the organiser of that unit. He/She can co-ordinate with the megateam captain, can get his unit of fliers into position, and can control the on the ground positioning of his fliers. If there are new mega team fliers allocated to his unit then he can be i.c. working with them beforehand to assess skill levels and brief on calls and etiquette in the sky.

The number and colour combination could also be used for calling individual manoevures within the total pattern - random calls say for individual 180's.

I can also recommend the idea of the megateam caller being a non-flier occasionally. I tried this at Ainsdale and it made it much easier to see the bigger picture!

HNY to all :)

#63 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 03:50 AM

Hi all - I like the idea of building the grid up from smaller vertical units. The colour identifier via a wristband or some such could work well. It would also be sensible to give each person in a particular colour unit a number. So for example the fliers in the red unit might be numbered 1 at front (lowest kite in the sky) then 2,3,4,5, with 6 being the top kite. It would make sense for the number 6 flier to be nominated as the organiser of that unit. He/She can co-ordinate with the megateam captain, can get his unit of fliers into position, and can control the on the ground positioning of his fliers. If there are new mega team fliers allocated to his unit then he can be i.c. working with them beforehand to assess skill levels and brief on calls and etiquette in the sky.

The number and colour combination could also be used for calling individual manoevures within the total pattern - random calls say for individual 180's.

I can also recommend the idea of the megateam caller being a non-flier occasionally. I tried this at Ainsdale and it made it much easier to see the bigger picture!

HNY to all :)


Thanks David.

Felix

#64 andelscott

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 04:50 AM

I'm now a little confused on the objectives of the register as discussion appears forked:

  • Team flying - for demonstrations;
  • Megafly - for show or participation.
I would suggest these are two rather different needs.

Team flying

For JB, SH and others, I can see a real benefit in knowing of other advanced skilled pilots within a geographical area in case of a day with "man down" (man as in mankind, so man or woman, of course!). It would be a "deps" register or allow a team performance where it would not otherwise be possible to travel as a group - due to operational, logistics or financial constraint.

Mega-fly / Mega-Team

I'm less convinced of the benefits of a Mega-team (MT) register.

Ultimately, it is completely down to the Field Director at any event, with responsibility delegated to the MT director for the fly. Of course there is a tension between excluding those who have sufficient skills for a suitable routine - just because they haven't presented for accreditation - and inadvertently including someone whose skill level could compromise safety or result in a humongous ball of string (leading to reputational damage). So to include a MegaTeam division in the Register, one might need separate 'classes' of flyer - full membership and associate, for example, where the latter means "keen, but check out the skills on the day before including in a MT".

I completely understand Bob's comments earlier in the thread, for example, light wind skills may be the critical aspect on one day, whereas on another day the MT director might be able to include a wider group of flyers.

However, it seems to me that a MegaFly relies on fliers actually turning up. By contrast a team performance would be by invitation only. A register could inadvertently turn flyers away from a MT and create a "ruling elite".

At present Rev flying is fun and appears largely free of politics and major egos - please let's keep it that way!
Andy

#65 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 05:34 AM

I'm now a little confused on the objectives of the register as discussion appears forked:

  • Team flying - for demonstrations;
  • Megafly - for show or participation.
I would suggest these are two rather different needs.

Team flying

For JB, SH and others, I can see a real benefit in knowing of other advanced skilled pilots within a geographical area in case of a day with "man down" (man as in mankind, so man or woman, of course!). It would be a "deps" register or allow a team performance where it would not otherwise be possible to travel as a group - due to operational, logistics or financial constraint.

Mega-fly / Mega-Team

I'm less convinced of the benefits of a Mega-team (MT) register.

Ultimately, it is completely down to the Field Director at any event, with responsibility delegated to the MT director for the fly. Of course there is a tension between excluding those who have sufficient skills for a suitable routine - just because they haven't presented for accreditation - and inadvertently including someone whose skill level could compromise safety or result in a humongous ball of string (leading to reputational damage). So to include a MegaTeam division in the Register, one might need separate 'classes' of flyer - full membership and associate, for example, where the latter means "keen, but check out the skills on the day before including in a MT".

I completely understand Bob's comments earlier in the thread, for example, light wind skills may be the critical aspect on one day, whereas on another day the MT director might be able to include a wider group of flyers.

However, it seems to me that a MegaFly relies on fliers actually turning up. By contrast a team performance would be by invitation only. A register could inadvertently turn flyers away from a MT and create a "ruling elite".

At present Rev flying is fun and appears largely free of politics and major egos - please let's keep it that way!


Andy,

Thanks very much for your response. As I noted earlier in the thread, the Teams are quite capable of looking after themselves. The possibility of 'swapping in fliers' is another issue which I think should/could be addressed as well...

If fliers are interested in flying in Mega Teams I think that it would be useful to establish 'rules of engagement' which participants would be expected to acknowledge. Again, further back up the thread I made it clear that this was a 'discussion' and that any 'events' should be 'fun', not an ordeal...

Subscribing to a register would indicate that a flier was willing to take part in discussions about the nature of an event and the ways in which local conditions would be dealt with as well as confirming that the field director/caller had complete authority on the day.

I had no mandate to 'organise' the Portsmouth/Bristol events, just an excuse. <grins>

If there was a 'small organisation'/'register' of interested fliers it would, I think, be possible to put together proposals to festival organisers for larger events in the future. (I have mentioned the 100 person team already.) Without a proper mandate I cannot see how it would be possible for anyone to proceed. JB does however have some provision for his event at WSIKF 2010.

Felix

#66 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 05:51 AM

working on andy's comments at the end of his post it occurs that if there are important mandates, then one should be an obligation to help other fliers. This is one of the bylaws of the International Jugglers Association for example...all members agree to help others.
Scott A Koenig
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#67 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 06:13 AM

working on andy's comments at the end of his post it occurs that if there are important mandates, then one should be an obligation to help other fliers. This is one of the bylaws of the International Jugglers Association for example...all members agree to help others.


Scott,

Thanks for that. I had come to a similar sentiment from a different direction....

'We need fliers who can comfortably 'own their hover' and have no thoughts of having 'superior' capability or equipment... <grins>'

Felix

#68 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 06:40 AM

I'll buy that for a dollar.

International Register of 'Revolution' Team Fliers = IROR

Going once, going twice...


Looks like IROR went a long time ago...

Felix

#69 Stone in Shoe Bob

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 12:58 PM

@ John and Felix
First, apologies for throwing my two-pennyworth into the discussion then walking away for best part of two days, I have been reading but due to other pressures on my time I have been unable to reply.

Does the idea I outlined make sense to you Bob, or up for debate?

Absolutely, but may I add that neither of you need my approval for this. My earlier post was simply meant as a tactful reminder of what happened in the spring/summer of 2008. Felix posed about a planed gathering of some of the world’s top Rev teams at Portsmouth and Bristol and the rest of us were invited to come and enjoy the show. I’m sure you both remember how the discussions were high-jacked with accusations of elitism, toys were thrown out of prams and the celebrations were nearly spoiled for all.

Also, perhaps a dedicated section of this forum, hosting said discussions? Set to so all can read, but most categories in the section can only be posted to by those "registered" and acknowledged by the panel. In addition, have one "waiting room" section in the same area where anyone can post, challenge or question. Last but not least, one section accessible only to the panel, for internal discussions.

I think that makes a lot of sense and would go a long way to avoiding a repeat of the 2008 problems.


I'd like to see Stephen get in these discussions as well, he's been strangely absent for a while now.

I think it has already been said but I will concur I think he is doing family stuff and has slopped over the edge of the electronic horizon for a few days.
Stone in Shoe Bob

It's Good to Share the Joy.

#70 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 01:13 PM

@ John and Felix
First, apologies for throwing my two-pennyworth into the discussion then walking away for best part of two days, I have been reading but due to other pressures on my time I have been unable to reply.

Absolutely, but may I add that neither of you need my approval for this. My earlier post was simply meant as a tactful reminder of what happened in the spring/summer of 2008. Felix posed about a planed gathering of some of the world's top Rev teams at Portsmouth and Bristol and the rest of us were invited to come and enjoy the show. I'm sure you both remember how the discussions were high-jacked with accusations of elitism, toys were thrown out of prams and the celebrations were nearly spoiled for all.

I think that makes a lot of sense and would go a long way to avoiding a repeat of the 2008 problems.

I think it has already been said but I will concur I think he is doing family stuff and has slopped over the edge of the electronic horizon for a few days.


Hi Bob,

Thanks for your response. I am all too well aware of the 2008 issues. Happily we managed to get a result despite the tantrums.

This new dialogue is an attempt to take things forward.

I have certain hopes but no inclination to any great effort if there is not serious support evident here or elsewhere. JB has taken steps within the forum and has support for WSIKF 2010.

Felix

Felix

#71 Kitelife

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 02:25 PM

I'll speak a little out of turn here and identify a definition, as I see it.

Team flying is just that, TEAM flying, without regard to any review or control... It is and should continue to be self-moderated, I don't believe the purpose of IROR is to influence or stifle ANY of this.

However, all due respect the field directors, they often don't know enough about MEGA team (let's say this is defined as 40+ pilots) to make any type of decision, except those based on feedback from the individual who will be coordinating such large attempts.

The goal is to get a handle on really BIG mega flies before it gets out of hand, which it's come close to a couple of times.

There MUST be a standard at this level, otherwise not only is a safety issue, but such grand efforts can be foiled rather quickly by a couple of unprepared pilots, causing upwards of 45 minutes in clean up just to get airborne again.

Bottom line, we have a group responsibility to the event organizers with regard to safety as well as time and field consumption, we also have a responsibility to find the middle line of moderation so that the most people can get the most out of such large mega flies.

John Barresi

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#72 Kitelife

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 02:34 PM

At WSIKF 2010, we were TOO BIG for the event (literally)... Even with 50 pilots, we were overlapping our bounds nearly every day, a big problem.

Additionally, because of the sheer range of skill levels, just getting 50 pilots in the air took upwards of 45 minutes to get in place, primarily due to two things:

1. Lack of knowledge in using and implementing the grid.
2. A few newer pilots taking down the whole pack, restarting the process all over again.

With these observations, I hope you'll all appreciate the need for some international standards for starting and ending such large flies, conduct immediately before, during and after the attempt(s), as well as who might present a potential problem for the BIG PICTURE.

Step back, put your fear of exclusivity aside... We're kite fliers damn it!

Look at the people who are stepping up to try and make such things more accessible for everyone, weigh in on their collective characters and experience (as a group)... There's no conspiracy, this is the next logical step for large mega fly attempts worldwide.

The details aren't formed yet, and while some executive decisions must ultimately be made, again weighing in the collective character of those who are willing to take all that comes with leading oversized mega flies, we will be listening deeply to all of YOU.

John Barresi

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#73 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 02:38 PM

I'll speak a little out of turn here and identify a definition, as I see it.

Team flying is just that, TEAM flying, without regard to any review or control... It is and should continue to be self-moderated, I don't believe the purpose of IROR is to influence or stifle ANY of this.

However, all due respect the field directors, they often don't know enough about MEGA team (let's say this is defined as 40+ pilots) to make any type of decision, except those based on feedback from the individual who will be coordinating such large attempts.

The goal is to get a handle on really BIG mega flies before it gets out of hand, which it's come close to a couple of times.

There MUST be a standard at this level, otherwise not only is a safety issue, but such grand efforts can be foiled rather quickly by a couple of unprepared pilots, causing upwards of 45 minutes in clean up just to get airborne again.

Bottom line, we have a group responsibility to the event organizers with regard to safety as well as time and field consumption, we also have a responsibility to find the middle line of moderation so that the most people can get the most out of such large mega flies.


Yes, we need to know what 'we' are doing before imposing upon organisations that do not know what we are doing....

At the outset, I can say with confidence, that I did not know all the ramifications of putting 36 plus fliers together and making it work. The fact that it can is stunning... We have to deal with the detail as well!

Felix

#74 Kitelife

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 02:43 PM

Felix mentions 36 pilots as an example... And consider the problems we had with 54 in Bristol 2008...

Now just fathom ONE HUNDRED or more Revs and what comes along with that, not only for us, but those within striking distance.

Does anyone really want to leave it to relative anarchy or "busk" it day of the event?

There has to be a chain of command, otherwise we endanger more than the spectators around us, but also the whole group's ability to enjoy it relatively trouble free, as well as our ability to even be allowed such things at future events.

This ideal exists outside of ego, pecking order or any other such b*ll$h*t anyone here would like to imagine... It's a point of quantifiable experience, earned respect and responsibility.

John Barresi

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#75 Kitelife

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 02:48 PM

And not to beat a dead horse, but it seems to be the largest lingering fear that is showing itself in previous posts... I'll say it once, and say it loud.

These discussions pertain ONLY to significant mega fly attempts being led by members of the IROR faculty, and to establishing clear and attainable standards that YOU as pilots can identify and work on so that you can participate safely and successfully.

Team flying as we know it otherwise exists outside IROR, although the standards developed for mega team attempts will have powerful and longstanding benefits for all team fliers, just in terms of a defined course of knowledge.

Folks like Hoath, myself and Ben (Flic) who commonly lead groups of 30+ fliers in mega teams have so much on our plate... And I'd encourage anyone who hasn't done so already to really objectively consider the ramifications of taking on such a task, as well as the skills and fallout that inevitably comes along with it.

Those who were "on the inside", privy to the mentalities, details and stresses of team coordinators in this position, PLEASE speak your mind here and back me up... It's no small undertaking, and we need to help everyone by helping our ability to be effective coordinators.

After the 64 Rev fly at WSIKF, I myself had to go "off the grid" for over an hour, just sitting on the single line field and decompressing... Not out of anger or any such thing, just relieving the tension that comes with being patient enough for everyone and watching so much at all times for nearly 2 hours.

John Barresi

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#76 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 03:19 PM

<snip>
just relieving the tension that comes with being patient enough for everyone and watching so much at all times for nearly 2 hours.


JB,

I am not quite sure of the precise direction of your last couple of posts, that is, who they were directed at, but I would like to congratulate you on your passionate backing of the Mega Team project.

I have to admit that I drove away from Portsmouth in 2008 'in tears'.

Felix

#77 Kitelife

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 03:28 PM

Frankly, I'm just addressing what I feel are potential misunderstandings and emotional responses to the concept of IROR. :)

John Barresi

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#78 david ellison

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 04:04 PM

It's obvious (surely?) that a large grid type mega team performance requires preparation, co-ordination and leadership. The prospect of 60 let alone 100 kite fliers launching in a busy festival arena without all knowing their roles is crazy and the possible, perhaps likely consequences, not worth thinking about. We'd never get the opportunity again that's for sure and that would be a great shame. Freedom through discipline, rather than cat herding, is the way to go ;)

#79 Felix Mottram

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 04:16 PM

It's obvious (surely?) that a large grid type mega team performance requires preparation, co-ordination and leadership. The prospect of 60 let alone 100 kite fliers launching in a busy festival arena without all knowing their roles is crazy and the possible, perhaps likely consequences, not worth thinking about. We'd never get the opportunity again that's for sure and that would be a great shame. Freedom through discipline, rather than cat herding, is the way to go ;)


David,

All understood and correct but we need to get the potential participants to agree to the 'terms and conditions'. This is rather boring and unfortunate but without the detail we cannot go forwards.

Very irritating!!!

Felix

#80 david ellison

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 02:39 AM

No argument with that Felix. To take this forward we probably need to hear the viewpoints of more of the key participants/co-ordinators. Either on or off-line. If there is general agreement that developing a structure and protocols for grid mega teams is the way to go then drafting and discussing those t&c's comes next.

Edited by david ellison, 29 December 2009 - 02:39 AM.





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