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#1 Kitelife

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 03:52 PM

Hi folks, I've got a fast and furious discussion going on my Facebook page right now after discovering panel-for-panel knock offs of the B-Series coming out of China, some reputably coming with full logos and my signature graphic, making it a true COUNTERFEIT... Needless to say, I'm infuriated, as is everyone at Revolution.

Please feel free to jump in on this discussion - http://www.facebook.com/barresij

It's not just effecting Revolution, MANY other companies are being ripped off... See the attached image from a Chinese company's web site, complete with the originals which I've added for comparison.

More_Albatross_Copies.jpg

I encourage *all of you* to keep a close eye out for these copies, and to do your part by educating your friends, promoting the companies who actually work *for* our community, and by supporting only legitimate vendors... This also assures you of receiving *quality* product with a true support network behind it.

Please *do not* post offending company links here, but feel free to send them on to Ben and myself directly.

If you have horror stories about having bought a bad copy, *do* feel free to share them here. ;)

John Barresi

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#2 Watty

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 07:50 PM

Yes, I've been watching on facebook, and did some Googling. It is just unbelievable that they are so ballsy to advertise such obvious counterfeits.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#3 Jynx

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 10:02 PM

Complaining to eBay, when you see a knock-off, DOES work!

I have seen the removal of knock-off auction pages by doing so!

We must continue to check for these and follow-up!

"When the power of love becomes more important than the love of power,

then there will be peace"

Jimi Hendrix

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#4 big bri

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 11:12 PM

110% behind what your doing John to stop the flow.I cant be doing with this dam grey area copying BS.That some are Happy,,,yeh,,,happy to hide behind.

The wider implications of the Copy thing are compex,but dont let them grind you down my freind.Lead the way.Im sure many will stand and be counted beside you.


Thanks John for your effort.


BRIAN...

#5 melnsct

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:56 AM

John,
Have you been in contact with David Gomberg??
I understand that he recently won a lawsuit over Chinese copies of the Peter Lynn Octopus.
Melanie in Tennessee

#6 mousieo

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 05:27 AM

John,
Have you been in contact with David Gomberg??
I understand that he recently won a lawsuit over Chinese copies of the Peter Lynn Octopus.


He did indeed .. I realize it's many companies and kitemakers that are suffering here... as well as Rev. Behind the cause for sure , and I support it by only buying from Rev, or the originating kite maker or manufacture . Is Rev actively pursuing this situation ? Anything we can do ?

I suppose this is not any different then when one of our family's kites are stolen from the their car, or garage is it? And I know how great everyone is about watching for those kites then... the more it's monitored.. the more information our friends that have been violated have.

thinking out loud here.

#7 Kitelife

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 09:28 AM

The only thing that you as fliers can do, and *should* do is simply to educate and observe...

In other words, do what you've always done, fly and nurture other fliers, guide them along.

The LAST thing any of us (including Rev) want to see is cruelty, never forget what it feels like to be on the wind.

I appreciate the passion you all have expressed, it's duly recognized, but this isn't war.

Just walk the middle, take care of those around you, take stock of what we DO have and work to make it better. ;)

John Barresi

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#8 Kitelife

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 09:31 AM

Also, rest assured that Ben and are in contact with all the right people... Our network of eyes and ears extends further than anyone here might realize, and we're utilizing them to full effect... However, feel free to contact both us with any insights or information that you think might be of use.

As of today, after speaking with them by phone yesterday, one of the larger third-party distribution channels for B-Series copies out of China has been permanently closed.

One for the family, thanks all. ;)

John Barresi

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President - American Kitefliers Association

"We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails."
(found in a fortune cookie - possibly an Einstein quote)

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#9 jburka

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 10:10 AM

Have you been in contact with David Gomberg??
I understand that he recently won a lawsuit over Chinese copies of the Peter Lynn Octopus.


I feel it's important to have a little clarification on that one...

First, a disclaimer: David is a friend of mine and I've traveled with him a fair amount. I'm also a customer of Gomberg Kite Productions International and have sent way too much money to New Zealand via Neotsu, OR.


The situation with Chinese manufacturers is such that it would be largely impossible to go after the factories. What David did was to sue an American kiteflier who had imported 5 maxi and over-large octopus kites. His lawyer was kiter and intellectual property lawyer Carl Crowell (many of you have probably seen Carl's Crossdeck cellular kites at festivals).

Obviously there is risk in, as one kiter put it, "suing one of your best customers." But David felt that he had to do so in order to protect the value of the Peter Lynn kites for which he is the American reseller. In addition, he was suing a single person over about $25,000 worth of kites, as opposed to a $300 piece. And finally, my understanding is that the defendant was aware that he was buying knock-offs, but felt that the price was "too good to pass up."

The suit never made it to trial, as David and the defendant reached a settlement, the details of which are private.

#10 beach

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 10:14 AM

He did indeed .. I realize it's many companies and kitemakers that are suffering here... as well as Rev. Behind the cause for sure , and I support it by only buying from Rev, or the originating kite maker or manufacture . Is Rev actively pursuing this situation ? Anything we can do ?

I suppose this is not any different then when one of our family's kites are stolen from the their car, or garage is it? And I know how great everyone is about watching for those kites then... the more it's monitored.. the more information our friends that have been violated have.

thinking out loud here.


Am we are on the job in a big way which because we are working with the legal department the Gombergs used I can not really talk
about more at this date. Just remember we are fighting the good fight and when your right you are right...... Ben :blue-cool: :blue-cool:

#11 lummas

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 11:56 AM

Keep up the good work guys. This practice realy does need to be stopped.

Mark

#12 mousieo

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 12:51 PM

Am we are on the job in a big way which because we are working with the legal department the Gombergs used I can not really talk
about more at this date. Just remember we are fighting the good fight and when your right you are right...... Ben :blue-cool: :blue-cool:


I figured you would be on it Ben..thanks for giving us a bit of info..

Again I think the best thing is to continue to be educating people and remember that some truly do nottt know what is going on. So be polite, and be helpful and the product will speak for itself.

Here's to friends..
Amy

#13 quaa714

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 01:20 PM

As of today, after speaking with them by phone yesterday, one of the larger third-party distribution channels for B-Series copies out of China has been permanently closed.

One for the family, thanks all. ;)


in a word......NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Cya in the Sand!....."

"Slack lines are fine lines!"


"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" BD
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#14 terry w

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 02:46 PM

i might be way off base here ... but could the AKA not become involved in someway
education in their printed material ... at events etc ... or would this be to much of a political hot potato for them
perhaps moblizing all the different kite flying associations and clubs as one unit to battle the knockoff might be effective as well
as a team we will do our best to educate anywhere we go .... a banner etc ... verbalage to make the spectators aware of the situation ???
it is bad enough the north american corporations manufacture offshore ... cheap wages equals cheap s@#t as far as i am concerned ... plus there are thousand s of canadian and american workers who remain unemployed and underemployed :kid_cussing:
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#15 Felix Mottram

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 02:56 PM

i might be way off base here ...
<snip>


I am perplexed by the American Corporations manufacturing off-shore and running admin-operations off-shore as well.

Their commitment to the home country must surely be open to question...

We have also noticed that the Banking community has questionable tendencies.

How 'way off base' does one have to be?

Happily Revolution Kites are not outsourced.....

Felix

#16 Harrier

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 03:10 AM

Happily Revolution Kites are not outsourced.....

Felix


Well mine are, they come from America. :P

All this fuss about outsourcing.... my electricity comes at times from France via a French company, some of my gas comes from somewhere near the Urals with help from a lot of European countries, delivered by a German company, my petrol from god knows where.
The company putting up the new offshore generators near here, Danish, with a lot of help from the Dutch.
You wanna live in the dark and cold? I dont.
Friends of mine employed here in the UK by Japanese, Chinese, and Indian companys etc etc etc do you want to see them out of work?
Welcome to the real world.

Of course no right minded person would or should support the stealing of artistic or itellectual property, copying such stuff is not right or fair, we dont need continual telling, we get it.

Questions we get asked over and over when out flying, " what is that?" always answered, "a Revolution kite from America" (even if it just resembles one), next question, "where can I get one?", answer "Kiteworld, but you will have to go online to find them", next question "how much?" answer spoken very quietly and quickly.
I have kites with the LE sleeves worn to shreds by continual hard contact with the ground from handing the kites over to any interested person who wants to take the handles, its what works best, there were just 2 of us flying here for quite while, now there 15-16 regularly, folk who own a lot of Revs between them, and on occaison more that 30 of us, just one message forget about all the big business stuff, get out flying and have fun we sure as hell do.

#17 quaa714

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 04:22 AM

I think the question and more importantly the topic here needs to remain on focus which is counterfeiting. While in the case of Revolution the issue arises mostly within the context of foreign companies producing knockoffs, there is also potential for rampant countefeiting of products, Revs or otherwise, by US based companies. Counterfeiting is a global issue rather than a foreign issue and takes place domestically as well.

To go to the question of American businesses outsourcing both manufacturing and admin sides of their businesses to foreign soil doesn't mean they're involved in counterfeiting or nefarious practices. And, conversely, there are many foreign companies that do both manufacturing and admin operations on American soil. The reasons are many and the acts of counterfeiting are not likely one that is in their business plans. In this day and age of global business I don't imagine there are many large corps that haven't looked into or already taken the plunge into int'l branching out of their businesses.

In the case of our small community, a Chinese based company (and other companies too) seemingly set up with one goal in mind, to illegally copy Revolution Brand copyrighted, intellectual property, as well as other kite manufacturers goods, is further enhanced by the advent of such sites as Ebay, etc. The percentage of sellers selling goods sold on these sites are likely legit, but the point is that Ebay and other sites like them, need to spend more time actively policing themselves and using copyright and intellectual property legal avenues to daily and ruthlessly pursue companies and indivduals who are using their sites to sell goods that they themselves have not further looked into and have only given them a means to sell. These sites CANNOT wait until a user like myself, submits a claim of counterfeitism, which I do daily.Since they take a passive role and only look into so called counterfeiting/piracy issues when prompted by the consumer, it seems clear they are condoning this practice, allowing these business (for lack of a better word) to go unchecked.

David pursuing an American Kiter as a means to aggressively put a stop to one companies illicit practices is a bold attempt which I applaud. The buyer of known illegally made copyrighted goods is, if not equally guilty, is at least complicit in keeping the illegal business operating by knowingly purchasing knocked off goods. Sending a message to the consumer level is harsh but if done enough times sends a larger message to both consumer and provider. (case in point....drug dealers and users at the street level, or prostitution and their Johns).
While an odd comparison to something ike kites, at it's most basic level, it is the same.

I know Lolly, The Hadzickis boys, Ben, John, etc and the Revolution family (all of us by extension) are actively pursuing these businesses through whatever means necessary to us individually and collectively. The wheels of progress grind slowly in these cases and wins for the good guys come even more slowly, we can never stop aggressively getting out the message to buy only from authorized sources and at a grass routes level get the message out to first time buyers and other interested parties that their prospective purchase is an investment in a lot of time and hard work to put out the best product possible.

"Cya in the Sand!....."

"Slack lines are fine lines!"


"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" BD
"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain" BM
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#18 Harrier

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 05:27 AM

In the case of our small community, a Chinese based company (and other companies too) seemingly set up with one goal in mind, to illegally copy Revolution Brand copyrighted, intellectual property, as well as other kite manufacturers goods, is further enhanced by the advent of such sites as Ebay, etc. The percentage of sellers selling goods sold on these sites are likely legit, but the point is that Ebay and other sites like them, need to spend more time actively policing themselves and using copyright and intellectual property legal avenues to daily and ruthlessly pursue companies and indivduals who are using their sites to sell goods that they themselves have not further looked into and have only given them a means to sell. These sites CANNOT wait until a user like myself, submits a claim of counterfeitism, which I do daily.Since they take a passive role and only look into so called counterfeiting/piracy issues when prompted by the consumer, it seems clear they are condoning this practice, allowing these business (for lack of a better word) to go unchecked.


Nice piece, I believe the law regarding copyright abuse on Ebay has been and still is being tested both here (UK) and in Europe (still two different sets of law).

"Online auction site eBay has "no legal duty" to protect other companies' trade marks or stop its sellers from infringing them, the High Court has said."

More information here.
http://www.out-law.com/page-10039

#19 Felix Mottram

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 08:30 AM

Well mine are, they come from America. :P
<snip>


Hmm... Actually, some of them are made by Bazzer! <grins>

Felix

#20 awindofchange

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 11:12 AM

So...how many of you want that new Zen?!?!?!?


As many of you know, the Zen is not yet available as Ben and the rest of the crew are still doing extensive R&D (fine tuning) on the kite to make sure that when it does finally hit the shelves that it is the best it can possibly be.

The reason I bring this up on this topic? Well, the Zen has been in prototype stages for well over a year now, with extensive and time consuming efforts to "Tweak" this here and "nudge" that there. I don't know for sure but will estimate that hundreds of previous prototypes have ended up in the scrap bin as being things that were tried and found to not work. All of this and a year (or more) of salaries to Ben, Jon, I-Quad, sewers, Lolly, Joe and many many others to test and give feedback on this new product has put a financial cost to Revolution that could be $100,000.00 or more to produce just this one simple kite --- and they haven't even gone to production with it yet.

Now, as soon as Rev gets the kite ready to sell (and their chance to try and start making back all the money they forked out over the last year or so), another company takes the final product, rushes it into their sewing factory and illegally copies it - and then because they don't have all the incurred expense, they are able to dump the product onto the market for pennies above their only sole product cost. Every single kite they sell cuts into Revolutions ability to recoup their expense for designing the product. If they sell enough copies then Revolution will never make enough to be able to pay for all the research and development they had to dump into the kite to get it finished.....eventually they lose enough money that they are forced to close their doors or move into another area that is more financially sound.

To put it bluntly - by purchasing counterfeit or illegal copies you are destroying your own sport by limiting the amount of new products and/or financially hurting companies that are willing to spend large amounts of money bringing new products to market. What is going to happen if Revolution stops producing the Zen because they realize that they will never get their cost of production back through the sales? Do you think that counterfeit company is going to still offer the kite? They are only capable of offering kites that have already been developed - they CANT design new product because they don't have that ability. The Zen and any other new kites will cease to exist.

Revolution offers an exceptional product for a very reasonable price - especially when you figure the amount of R&D, time and effort they put into bringing the kite to market.

You need to ask yourself this one question before purchasing any illegal or counterfeit copies:

Is it worth destroying the sport that I love for a measly 40 or 50 bucks savings on an inferior product?

Think about the years of enjoyment you will get from a quality built, 100% USA made, service backed Revolution and you will discover that it just isn't worth the compromise. Even if the Authentic Revolution costs 100 bucks more - divide that by 6-7+ years of enjoyment and you will find that the real thing will only cost about 10 bucks a year more than the crappy built knock-off (that will probably fall apart or break within the first few times of flying).

Please don't destroy this wonderful sport we have all grown to love.
Purchase only authentic kites from authentic dealers and manufacturers. :)




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