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Do you adjust knots on top or brake line?


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Poll: Adjust line length at handle top or brake (50 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you use knots on top, brake, either

  1. Adjust with top knots (40 votes [80.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.00%

  2. Adjust with brake knots (5 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  3. Sometimes top, sometimes brake (5 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

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#1 JeffD

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 01:56 PM

I've started making my top pigtail with only one knot and using the brake line knoted for adjustment.

Seems cleaner and with less knots there's less to hang up on.

Also stays consistant for adjustments.

Not sure I ever want lines even. Thought it was better for low wind but following forum advice tried more brake and like it
in even lowest winds.

If this works out I guess I can shorten brake lines a couple of knots worth. Less stuff to flail around.

So how do you adjust? See any flaw with just break to adjust?

Sorry if already polled but haven't seen it

This is my first poll attempt hope I got it right.

#2 kairusan

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 02:55 PM

Excellent idea for a poll.

I have adjustment knots on both top and bottom, but my top leaders are about twice the length of the bottom leaders and have many more knots.

The bottom leaders are about 6" long and have three knots, each about 1/2" apart.

The top leaders are about 12" long and have nine knots, each about 1/2" apart.

The bottom leaders are only there for equalization and fine tuning, if necessary (I've never needed to yet). So I pretty much always use the last knot on the bottom.

The top leaders are where I make all my adjustments, because it's easiest to do when the kite is landed leading-edge-down. The top lines become very slack and thus the knots are removed very easily.

There's a lot of extra space without knots on the top leaders; that's there to make it safer to throw the handles around and such. This, unfortunately, necessitates that the bottom leaders be somewhat long. I've never had any tangle problems, though. I use my own version of no-snag handles.

For top leader settings, I prefer to fly standard on the third knot in from the end, and the vented on the fourth knot in from the end, regardless of the wind. This is lots of brake. But a little extra brake is there if I ever need it. The knots further down are for my double-stack, which so far seems to need less brake.

Edited by kairusan, 26 August 2009 - 04:11 PM.

kairusan

#3 RevWizard

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 02:59 PM

I've started making my top pigtail with only one knot and using the brake line knoted for adjustment.

Seems cleaner and with less knots there's less to hang up on.

Also stays consistant for adjustments.

Not sure I ever want lines even. Thought it was better for low wind but following forum advice tried more brake and like it
in even lowest winds.

If this works out I guess I can shorten brake lines a couple of knots worth. Less stuff to flail around.

So how do you adjust? See any flaw with just break to adjust?

Sorry if already polled but haven't seen it

This is my first poll attempt hope I got it right.

I would say it everyone to their own preference.

I started pigtail use back in the early 90's. I have the same amount of knots top and bottom. I will adjust from one end to the other depending on how I want to fly. If I want to do a back flip landing, I run long at the top and short at the bottom. It I want bicycle, I will balance out for the equal movement top to bottom.
It is for me all personal preference.

Now, if you fly team then you all would want very close to the same settings in order that your timing matches closely.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

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#4 FortFlyer

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 03:19 PM

Since I started Flying I've had the bottom knot 1/2" from the handle and clipped off the rest, Top lines are where I do all my adjustments.

Used to use beads or knots for adjustments, Now its what ever is on the handles I have. The last few years my top lines on the handles have gone from 6" to now 15" where I used to have 9 knots now I have 3 lol.

Over Time it seems I find a basic place I want to be on adjustment then my hands seem to compensate for the rest sliding up and down the handles as needed.

As you go on in time you'll find yourself changing preferences kinda like stepping stones in your progression.

Nothing is set in stone everyones hands wrists and arms are different, the important thing is to experiment and find what works best for you.

Have Fun,
Jim,
Ft. Taber Park & Brenton Point

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#5 Jeepster

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 03:35 PM

Two points to consider ... as always, your mileage may vary:

1) The clipless handles came about because of the bottom D-ring snagging the top line some of the time. Thus, if your flying style causes that to happen on standard handles, you probably should clean up the handle bottom as much as possible ... that means a simple, short, one/two knot pig tail on the bottom and a longer, multi-knotted pig tail on the top. Otherwise, there will be times when you've pulled in the bottom line (added brake) enough that the free end of the pig tail is flopping around and could interfere with the top line.

2) Make two knots on the bottom pig tail spaced 1/2 inch apart. Then make as many knots on the top line as you want ... space them 1 inch apart. Now you can adjust your brake settings to 1/2 inch increments by varying both the top and bottom attachment points. Four knots on the top and two on the bottom will give you eight adjustment points spaced 1/2 inch apart and covering a total of 3 1/2 inches of adjustment. And no, I don't do that ... with my flying skills, having the lines within an inch or so is good enough.

Oh, and if you think there's only one way to set up your handles, check out JB, Ben and Lolly. JB has gobs of brake, Ben's leaders look about even and I've been told that Lolly learned to fly with her handles upside down ... long leaders on the bottom and short ones on top. So, as John M. said ... "everyone to their own preference."

Cheers,
Tom

#6 Kitelife

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 03:38 PM

Philosophy on iQuad, the top lines always need extension in order for a Rev to fly well.

Thusly, we ONLY have extensions on our top lines (handle end), with short pigtails on the bottom.

Bottom pigtails tend to tangle more in our experience, and are of no use imho, since lengthening the bottom at all would make our kites fly poorly.

To each their own, but there's what we're using on the team.

John Barresi

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#7 Dean750

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 05:24 PM

Since I started Flying I've had the bottom knot 1/2" from the handle and clipped off the rest, Top lines are where I do all my adjustments.

Used to use beads or knots for adjustments, Now its what ever is on the handles I have. The last few years my top lines on the handles have gone from 6" to now 15" where I used to have 9 knots now I have 3 lol.

Over Time it seems I find a basic place I want to be on adjustment then my hands seem to compensate for the rest sliding up and down the handles as needed.

As you go on in time you'll find yourself changing preferences kinda like stepping stones in your progression.

Nothing is set in stone everyones hands wrists and arms are different, the important thing is to experiment and find what works best for you.

Have Fun,



Perfectly stated Fort. Don't know how long in inches my top leaders are. The last knot touchs the bottom tip of the 13" handles? About 13" ? :wacko: I also clipped the outter most knot on the bottom and adjusted on the top. Way too much brake for team flying, but great in light to no wind as an individual. You'll eventually, if not already notice line length will start to play a roll in how you adjust your leaders.
As JB (Kitelife) stated, longer leaders on the bottom tend to cause some problems. When your making quick movements with your hands, the longer bottom leaders tend to end up over the top of your hand. I'm constantly hearing someone in my ear telling me to fly clean. :lol: But he also told me to just shut up and fly. Go figure. :P Even at a half inch away from the bottom of the handle, I still spend probably half my time flying with the brake lines wrapped around my wrist. :lol: Guess that kind of advice from one person has my hands a bit conflicted.
I added the second knot back on the bottom (per stock for the B Series 13" handles purley for team flying. Moving that one knot either way on the bottom equals 2 knots on top for me. And as Fort stated, experimenting is the best way to find what works for you. As he does, my hands are up and down on the handles. Individual flying, I'm fully extended on top, closest knot on the bottom, but I hold my handles between my thumb and index fingers with the top leader touching my index finger, using my ring finger for control inputs.
Then came the team settings. I'm not going there at the moment. My typing speed is back up to about 20 something words a minute. So, I'll just stop while I'm ahead. :lol:

Dean

Sorry, spelled individual wrong. :mellow:

Edited by Dean750, 26 August 2009 - 05:26 PM.


#8 JeffD

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 02:16 AM

Wow! Mine is the only "use bottom" answer on the survey.

I've been working on more brake and I like the results but have experienced the long bottom leader flailing tangle,

Top adjusting and short bottom will be tried (sounds a bit nasty somehow doesn't it?).

Lots of great info, glad I asked. Thanks!

#9 AldenMiler

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 04:22 AM

The best is when you adjust one handle a knot in on the top and the other a knot out on the bottom. Then let someone else fly your kite! It works but looks wierd! :lol:

-Alden
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#10 Yrna

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 04:57 AM

I adjust the top. The bottom always stays at the knot closest to the handle. My default is as much break as possible so I use the two settings furthest away from the handles, and then reduce that (if I absolutely have to) as the wind drops.

Edited by Yrna, 27 August 2009 - 04:57 AM.


#11 jburka

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 04:59 AM

If I'm flying a 1.5 I might make occasional adjustments to the top, particularly if I'm flying team and need to modulate to fit in with others, but I don't know that I've ever gone more than 3 knots back from the loose end of the standard B handles/pigtail.

If I'm flying one of my bridle-less IIs, I'm using the setting I came up with 1994 and never changed; there are no additional adjustment knots on my long-throws. On those handles the pigtail on the top is 7.75" longer than on the bottom.

#12 REVflyer

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:12 AM

I adjust the bottom (Brake) leaders only.

They are about 1/3 to 1/4 of the top leaders' overall length. I use 100# high test bridle line for my leaders so they untie and retie very easily. The tops lengths are determined by the overall handle size, longer throw sets get a longer leader.

I use lots of different handles so each set has it's own line and leaders, this path makes adjustments for varying line lengths very easy to overcome right on the field.

#13 big bri

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:51 AM

Only ever adjust the Tops.Rarely adjust at all.I dont even remove my handles anymore.I wrap the lot Together on two winders.Always have.If i do wana change anything.Its always the Top Leaders.Usually my hands compensate though.Similar to what Fort Flyer is saying.
Last weekend.A guy that flys with us.Had made leaders to match my own.He was quite bullish on how much better the kite now felt on the new Leaders.We swopped kites as he insisted i tried his B Series.On first looking quickly.The kites, apart from coulor.Wher identical in set up.
The second i tried to fly his kite.I noticed ther was something not quite correct,it was poor at best.Not set properly.After another few minutes.I set his lines for equalisation on the deck.The longest and shortest had around six inches diffrence.I was AMAZED he could actually fly it.What was it like on the old leaders.Perhaps they compensated for the lines being miles out.
Best bit though.
I equalised the lines Bang On.He set the kite back up and was OVER THE MOON.I didnt try the kite as the wind was so sweet and i wasnt impressed having spent sweet wind time[over an hour]messing with dam notts[i luv him though]
Until My bud Dave noticed the Sail was on Back to Front[bridle on the back]...lol

You can leed a Horse to Water,but a Pencil mustbe Lead.

BRIAN...

#14 Jeepster

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 09:17 AM

... compensated for the lines being miles out. ...

BRIAN...


Brian,

My son is a bit of a practical joker ... comes from his mother's side of the family. One day when I was away from the kite and distracted, he moved one of my top lines down the pigtail two knots. Then he made sure I was listening/paying attention to him when I started to fly again. After several minutes, he started laughing ... he had to show me what he'd done. Since I wasn't really paying attention to how the kite was flying, my brain (small as it is) compensated for the change and went on about the business of directing my hands to achieve the correct kite movements.

I'm now convinced that the average flyer, unless she/he is really concentrating on their handles and their flying, can't really tell the difference. Maybe our choppy mid-west winds carry some of the blame, but without hours of practice, the brain doesn't have a "this is correct" template with which to compare. Consequently, the brain simply does the best it can under the circumstances and compensates quite well.

My challenge to you is to make up a few 2 inch long bridle loops. Then slip one of them between the bridle and one of the top lines when a flyer or two is distracted. See what happens. How long before they recognize that something is amiss? In fact, have one of your mates try it on your kite in a blind test manner ... can you easily tell if he installed the 2 inch loop or not? How long before you were sure?

Cheers,
Tom

Now back to my Revoholic Anonymous meeting ... hello, my name is Tom and I'm a heavy handed kite flyer ...

#15 Felix Mottram

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 09:51 AM

<snip>

How long before you were sure?

Cheers,
Tom

Now back to my Revoholic Anonymous meeting ... hello, my name is Tom and I'm a heavy handed kite flyer ...


Hi Tom,

Good call...

I know that I adjust to line settings without conscious input.

Felix

#16 REVflyer

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:25 AM

if you fly one-handed at all
any difference is very easily noticed

#17 kairusan

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:27 AM

I'm now convinced that the average flyer, unless she/he is really concentrating on their handles and their flying, can't really tell the difference.


I think it's more likely than knot (hahahahah PUN!) that I could tell the difference in a blind fly test. (Although I'd want to use someone else's Rev for that, for when I crash from flying with a blindfold on.)

I can sort of just feel the right balance points for my various kites now. I've tried different adjustments from time to time and always end up tweaking progressively to a point where the kite feels correctly balanced for me. My settings are slightly different for every kite/lineset combination (not by much, just like 1/2" at most), but I tend to use the same settings for every wind speed.
kairusan

#18 big bri

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 10:56 AM

Brian,

My son is a bit of a practical joker ... comes from his mother's side of the family. One day when I was away from the kite and distracted, he moved one of my top lines down the pigtail two knots. Then he made sure I was listening/paying attention to him when I started to fly again. After several minutes, he started laughing ... he had to show me what he'd done. Since I wasn't really paying attention to how the kite was flying, my brain (small as it is) compensated for the change and went on about the business of directing my hands to achieve the correct kite movements.

I'm now convinced that the average flyer, unless she/he is really concentrating on their handles and their flying, can't really tell the difference. Maybe our choppy mid-west winds carry some of the blame, but without hours of practice, the brain doesn't have a "this is correct" template with which to compare. Consequently, the brain simply does the best it can under the circumstances and compensates quite well.

My challenge to you is to make up a few 2 inch long bridle loops. Then slip one of them between the bridle and one of the top lines when a flyer or two is distracted. See what happens. How long before they recognize that something is amiss? In fact, have one of your mates try it on your kite in a blind test manner ... can you easily tell if he installed the 2 inch loop or not? How long before you were sure?

Cheers,
Tom

Now back to my Revoholic Anonymous meeting ... hello, my name is Tom and I'm a heavy handed kite flyer ...


I do seem to have the touch of a Midwife Tom...lol.Even for a Big Fella.I think if you ask the lads i fly with They would say.He would definately Notice.
.Another area.Which i have a freeeeky Talent with the Rev is.Depth Perception.I realy can tell.Without much trial or error.If i can land on a NATS NUDGER at 120ft.Streight off the Bat.I hadnt realy noticed.It was others that commented.Because they had tried and failed or found it very difficult.I just have the nak for it.

The key has tobe.Practice.Muscle memory,and Goodlooks....lol

BRIAN...

#19 Stone in Shoe Bob

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:30 AM

I use fairly thick stiff bridle line for my leaders a piece of advice from David Ellison, stiff is good it helps to reduce snagging. I started with 4 equal length loops with 5 or 6 equally spaced knots on the bottom leaders they are considerably shortened. On the top leaders I had two knots one at the very end and one a short distance behind it (about half the distance between the break line knots), 90% of the time I flew on the end knot, I used to do most of the adjustments on the break lines. The purpose of the two close set knots on the top leaders was for fine adjustments, if I increased break by setting one knot further back and found it too much I could bring the top lines back to the second knot, effectively giving the break lines back half the initial adjustment.

Having said all that, I have just bought a new set of handles and I am going to set them up with shorter leaders on the bottom and do all the adjustments on longer top leaders, so that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.
Stone in Shoe Bob

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#20 Jeepster

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 01:08 PM

I do seem to have the touch of a Midwife Tom...lol.Even for a Big Fella.I think if you ask the lads i fly with They would say.He would definately Notice.
.Another area.Which i have a freeeeky Talent with the Rev is.Depth Perception.I realy can tell.Without much trial or error.If i can land on a NATS NUDGER at 120ft.Streight off the Bat.I hadnt realy noticed.It was others that commented.Because they had tried and failed or found it very difficult.I just have the nak for it.

The key has tobe.Practice.Muscle memory,and Goodlooks....lol

BRIAN...


I was following you very well until the "Goodlooks" comment ... check your keyboard, I think some of the letters have been switched. I'm sure you were aiming for "Goldilocks."

First, having watched you fly, I would argue that you fall outside the "average flyer" category. So, maybe a much smaller loop should be used to calibrate your heavy handed midwife touch. How large a line difference before you can be fooled? Quarter inch ... half inch ... ??? More and more hours of practice equals more and more muscle memory. Thus, one could probably develop a relationship between hours of practice and the ability to notice a difference in top line length.

Cheers,
Tom




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