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#181 Dean750

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 11:05 AM

Since spending time with the 1.5 Kites after Uchinada 2007 I would agree that the depth of the centre area is advantageous. I think that the question is particularly interesting in respect of the speed series as well as I think that controlling the whole sail is the key but that the skill should be transferable between sail configurations and line lengths.

Felix



Skill or flying ability I would think would be transferable between sail configurations. Having never flown a speed series, the 5 minutes I had on the new ones (JB's Blast) was a little short for getting the hang. The controls were the same, the timing and arm movments were slightly different.
Line length might be a different story though. So now you got me wondering if that blast on 80 foot lines would maybe have been the same as a 1.5 on 120's?
Maybe the question really is, what each individual percieves, flying the different versions of sails depending on line length and strength?

Dean :devil:

#182 Felix Mottram

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 11:20 AM

Skill or flying ability I would think would be transferable between sail configurations. Having never flown a speed series, the 5 minutes I had on the new ones (JB's Blast) was a little short for getting the hang. The controls were the same, the timing and arm movments were slightly different.
Line length might be a different story though. So now you got me wondering if that blast on 80 foot lines would maybe have been the same as a 1.5 on 120's?
Maybe the question really is, what each individual percieves, flying the different versions of sails depending on line length and strength?

Dean


Dean,

I am sure that you get my drift. The basic controls are the same but the timings vary between kite and line length.

I keep hearing of individuals making sweeping comments and I question the validity of some of the assertations.

Felix

#183 Dean750

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 11:40 AM

Dean,

I am sure that you get my drift. The basic controls are the same but the timings vary between kite and line length.

I keep hearing of individuals making sweeping comments and I question the validity of some of the assertations.

Felix



I do get your drift. Lines, skill and conditions play a part in how the kite flys. But ultimately it's up to the pilots understanding of how the kite fly's to begin with as to how it's going to fly.

In the Zens case though, it really does make flying in lighter wind easier. Wether your flying 1.5s or you have experience on the 1's.
If you haven't flown one yet. Skip the socks being blown off and just don't wear any that day. :P It really is that good. Like the B Pro's, this one will sweep the world, for at the least serious team flying. It's still the case, even if the kite is capable that the pilot either makes themselves and the kite look good, or ya suck and need more practice. :lol: I think a Zen in your hands Felix would be an AW inspiring show. ;)

Dean

#184 antman

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 04:19 PM

i do love the idea of this kite.. however for where i live ill probly never use it due to always haveing heavy winds.. still i like it .. a great idea
GOD PUT ME HERE. TO ENJOY THE WINDS

#185 big bri

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 12:08 AM

i do love the idea of this kite.. however for where i live ill probly never use it due to always haveing heavy winds.. still i like it .. a great idea


Yip The Idea is Great,but
So far,ive read every comparison on every Rev,By every pilot that can take off Or type, since Neos Omega was a lad .All on The Zen thread.Had to look once or twice if i was on the correct Thread...lol

Sedgewicks better than 1.5s
Zen compared to B Series Pros
Ive even read about SPEED SERIES being compaired.


LOL,Ho Well.

Thanks for the video JM .Enjoyed it very much.Fun seemed tobe the main theme,which is what its all about.
When Anyone finds one of JB,Stevie D,Monkey,flying the Zen over still water[ala JB Blue fade dvd]in a breath or a similar comparison.

Please post it

BRIAN... :)

Edited by big bri, 24 August 2009 - 12:09 AM.


#186 Aerochic

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 04:51 AM

For those of us who don't have access to steady wind on a regular basis, the Zen sounds like a godsend. I can't wait to try one!

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#187 Felix Mottram

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 05:02 AM

Yip The Idea is Great,but
So far,ive read every comparison on every Rev,By every pilot that can take off Or type, since Neos Omega was a lad .All on The Zen thread.Had to look once or twice if i was on the correct Thread...lol

Sedgewicks better than 1.5s
Zen compared to B Series Pros
Ive even read about SPEED SERIES being compaired.
<snip>


Brian,

I have said that flying the speed series 'informs' my flying of the other Revolution Kites. I do not think that that is too radical. Having become familiar with most of the kites I have to work quite hard to identify the different characteristics rather than just 'switching mode' and flying the kite to the limits of my/its capability.

I am looking forward to getting flying time on the current Rev2! I looked at the prototype Sedgewick one that I have with a view to 'restoring' it to normal rather than night flight mode as it is currently. (weighed down with gizmos)

<grins>

Felix

#188 Dean750

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 08:55 AM

Seems like most of the comparisons between the Zen and what ever are almost if not questions for a comparision.

While it is a new kite built for VERY light wind capability, I believe the only kite it should be compared to in this thread is the B Pro.

My reasoning for this is that basically what it is, is a B Pro with more sail area.
A B Pro as we've found has better loading, flys a little smoother than a std B and is far superior in reverse flight than a std B. So it's at least in my opinion a huge step up in the B Series line. Did I forget to mention how much better the B Pro handles light wind flight over a std B? ;)

Stopping and thinking about it like this is what I'm asking ya all to do.

There is a point (for me it's about 10 mph) that the std B Pro sail becomes just too twitchy. For those of you who own one, your choice at that point may be to move over to your mid vent with 3 wraps. Am I correct in my assumption? I won't even go into what a poo boy like me might have to do.

They same as above can be said on the low end of the wind range. Friday morning I had the music on, in my own little world flying on 120's. I knew it was that light based on how I started moving with the kite. Oops, get into that in another thread if asked.

But on the low end with a std B Pro with a Race Frame/Silver Bullets there is that point in which the kite becomes sluggish and flying becomes real work even with the skill to fly in low wind. Less that 1 mph for those wondering.

Thats where the Zen comes in. As Felix said earlier in this thread, skill and handling should be transferable from one kite to the next. Well believe it or not, that is exactly what you get with the Zen.

Where the B Pro becomes work to fly on long lines (120's since Team is the game for the most part) the Zen takes the work and cuts it by more than half.

The Zen in .25 mph had more feeling, more drive and speed than what I had just got done experiencing with my B Pro. Amazingly, the control inputs were exactly the same.

Bazzer, Steve and Monkey all said it's sweet spot is about 3 mph. With my personal flying style the sweet spot is a bit lowwer. 1 mph I'd probably be able to fly the Zen like I would be able to fly my B Pro with 3 to 4 mph of wind. Not sure about the upright hover
( :P Felix) in that low of wind. But everything else is possible and much, much easier in wind of 4 mph or less.

I'd say that if you have a quiver that contains the Zen and all 3 B Pro versions, you only need 2 line weights. 90# and 150's. No more real need for 50# at team lengths anyway.

While this discription only yaks about the low wind aspect of the kite there is more. :huh: Theres more? :lol:

It's fitted with std Rev 1 frames. So, like the 1.5's you have Race frame up to the 4 wrap frame. So while it's a light wind specialist you could fly it in some real wind. I don't know how much iQuad has experimented with the upper extent of the wind range. I'm curious about a doubled up LE with 150's. I would think that would be enough weight and drag to take you up to 12 or maybe 15 mph without being uncomfortable. And while it's not currently in the works just because the std. Zen is still being tested I would bet there will be a mid vent version at some point.

The Zen IS IMHO a bigger B Pro. It takes all the capabilities of the Pro and allows a person to take those skills into lower wind without all the work. A Pro with a Zen in their hands would be like watching angels flying on a womans fart. :lol: Ya know, they poot, not fart so it's only a slight wind. Never mind. :wacko:

Hope this helps.

Dean

#189 Felix Mottram

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 09:24 AM

<snip>
Not sure about the upright hover
( :P Felix) in that low of wind.
<snip>
Dean


Hi Dean,

Thanks for your observations. The upright hover is a very convenient benchmark for team flying. However, I was slightly dismayed when Stephen Hoath called this position for the Mega Team at Bristol and Portsmouth last year. I had always thought that LE facing left/right was much easier..... However, watching the videos of both (and subsequent) events it seems that there are fliers taking part who have very little practical control of the kite and are oscillating all over the place endangering other fliers. Presumably they know who they are?

I think that we could ask all the participants to identify themselves so that appropriate assistance could be offered. <grins>

Going back to the kites, I envisage a mixed mega fly in due course...

Felix

#190 Sage

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 04:04 PM

I want a Zen in my bag for two reasons. I have a full schedule and I often I can't choose when I fly.

Second reason is to keep the winds for dropping to zero. Ever notice how if you pull a Non Vented out the winds pick up. The Zen would be perfect keeping away low winds.

One last thing, I often feel like two lines guys are mocking me when I pack up and go home because of very low winds.

#191 steveb

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 11:51 PM

I had a chance to test fly the Zen on Wednesday (light winds day) at WSIKF '09.

I wanted to make sure that I gave it an accurate comparison, so I first flew my '95 Rev I with Race Rods and a modified bridle (made with 100# Laser Pro bridle line and scaled up from the B-Series bridle) for about 45 minutes on 50# x 120' lines.

It flew OK in the very light breeze, but I was working a bit in the lulls. I had to be careful in reverse, as the Rev I's very deep centre ^ makes it prone to bow-tying. After I really had its light wind performance fresh in my memory, I switched over to Bazzer's Zen.

What a difference! The same light breeze, but it suddenly felt solid on the lines and reverse felt much more forgiving- no more bow-ties! I think I could couch-quad the Zen in light breezes instead of working up a sweat with my Rev I.

Later on we laid the old Rev I on a Zen, to compare the sail shape. The Zen's leading edge had a smooth curve, where my Rev I is rather straight between the uprights and angled off at the ends. The most noticeable change is the centre ^. The Rev I is very deep and the kite often feels more like flying two separate wings than one kite. The deeper centre section creates a curved pocket that generates more drive and lift than the original's much smaller and shallower sail.

I plan to add a Zen to my kite bag in the near future. B)

#192 Sailor99

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 02:01 AM

Useful observations Steve. Thx. I can see exactly what you mean about the deeper centre section of the zen reducing the potential for over control. One question. Was the I you were using one with the mylar in - I am not very familiar with the older kites so not sure when the mylar came in?

Of course this all could be academic anyway - Ben implied earlier the xen may not be sold.
Over - Jeremy

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Knowledge: The small part of ignorance that we arrange and classify.

#193 Bazzer

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:29 AM

What a great week.
Many thanks to all that tried the Zen v12.5 prototype.
The picture says it all taken in a variable 2mph.
All race frame 1.5's on the ground.
Zens running team maneuvers in the sky above.
Kites in this picture were running 2 wrap centers with race frame outer and verts on 120 ft 90lb line.
Laura in the picture is the reason for the Zen. A year or so ago she got really frustrated with low end flying because her physical constraints on movement due to back and leg surgery. She flew solidly for 5hrs in winds from 2mph to 4mph. But I will let her tell you more when she appears back on the forum.
Tried kite on 50lb lines and it only got better.
Wind picked up to 6/7 mph during that morning and the Zen became the most precise rev I have ever flown.
Thank you Steve B for your report.

Version 14 is on the table right now.
Just need to change some very small things. Going to try the ultra light leading edge on the next version with a pig tail adjustment to make the handles settings exactly the same as our normal 1.5 settings.
Once again I will state . The Zen is a Rev 1 remake. It flies in low winds.There are some claims of vapor flying from some. That is down to the pilot. It makes your life easier. It is not an ultra light. Low wind flying takes technique.
To fly a rev in low wind does require some weight in the leading edge so that you can use the inertia to make turns and slides. Its a bit like trying to throw a ping pong ball further than a tennis ball.
Down to polishing now.
Thanks once more to all who have given us invaluable input from your words and flying.
The big question is "when will it be released"
The answer is ..."when it is ready". Many hoops to jump through yet.
Please, to those who have flown it. Post what you think here.
Bazzer

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Edited by Bazzer, 25 August 2009 - 08:43 AM.

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#194 Kitelife

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:44 AM

Great eval Baz, spot on.

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#195 Steve de Rooy

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 09:55 AM

OH yah.... Im really loving all the great comments on the Zen...

It was so awesome to have that opportunity for all of you at longbeach to give the Zen a try....

Thank you for all that gave it a fly and gave input... it all helps immensely ....

It was great to see you all again... what a week....

STeve D

#196 FortFlyer

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 09:59 AM

I'm still not getting the whole 2 wrap center thing especially on a kite that size.

Reason I say this is 2 wraps on my rev1 it folds up like a butterfly, 3wrap center with 2 wrap outer always seemed pretty great for even the lowest winds.

Now my curiosity has really peaked ;)
Jim,
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#197 steveb

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:11 AM

One question. Was the I you were using one with the mylar in - I am not very familiar with the older kites so not sure when the mylar came in?

My Rev I has a 3 panel 3/4 oz Nylon sail. It will fly in very light winds with the Race Rods and modified lighter bridle, but the Zen was a lot less work in the very light air we had on Wednesday. The Zen took far less body English to fly. I could've sat in a chair and flown it. The Zen would be great for people with mobility issues who still want to fly in light winds. The line pull was very solid and confidence-building during those light and sketchy spells.

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#198 Love2fly

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:32 AM

Hello all....

Zen..... it is amazing and here's why:

OK, you need to have some light wind flying skills, but you DO NOT need to move around (backing up for lift and trying to gain ground). I've got the technique part (I think) but have difficulty moving as much as most due to some major back problems (many back surgeries) which has weakened my leg.

There were times when the wind had to be under 2 mph and I was still flying! Yes, I need to move a bit, but was comfortably able to do it. At 3 mph, it honestly felt like I was flying 1.5 in a steady 8 mph wind. Several times I had looked around to see what else was flying (aside from the Zens) and not much; and that included SLK's! It actually was a bit "trippy" to grasp that concept as it was soooo loaded up that you could forget that it was only a 3 mph wind; without moving!

If you are performing (and you were brought in to do so) this is a must in those situations; when the wind is so low, but "the show must go on". (IMHO)

I've flown the Rev 1 and didn't like it at all. It does not have the same lift or load and is easily bowtied; plain and simple.

So, there you have it. "Fly it, you'll like it!"

Bazzer, I have one question: Is it done yet? Posted Image (I know it's not, but I'm waiting!!!!) lol
Laura
 
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#199 JD

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:34 AM

I'm still not getting the whole 2 wrap center thing especially on a kite that size.

Reason I say this is 2 wraps on my rev1 it folds up like a butterfly, 3wrap center with 2 wrap outer always seemed pretty great for even the lowest winds.

Now my curiosity has really peaked ;)



We found that the stronger spars in the middle don't give it enough flex. The 2wraps give it a nice flex that lets the entire sail fill up to its potential.

;) of course it's still not yet a final product and still has testing to be done....but it's getting there B)

#200 Mike

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 11:29 AM

Ahhh, the deeper V.
I suggested this mod years ago and they laughed at me!
Y'all should listen to Papa Smurf :P
Mike Kory:
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