46 replies to this topic

[andelscott]

Also, I would imagine that there would be more potential new Rev customers visiting the Revolution site than a potential new rev flyer becoming a kitelife subscribers to figure out what the Rev kite was. I don't have that data so again, I may be totally wrong here.

I guess this all eventually comes down to the business model. I respect JB's need to cover costs and the subscriber model provides a way of at least mitigating some of the cost of production and hosting. For Rev to underwrite new videos, there would also have to be some justification - if there was a known barrier to potential consumers due to the existing entry-level tutorials, then there may be some interest (but I'm not convinced it would make sense at the present time).

Personally I'm all in favour of the "community" determining the gaps and then seeking to fill them, avoiding duplication of effort as far as possible. Many members of this forum already offer help and tuition to new flyers and some will clearly be sufficiently motivated to create video tutorials encapsulating their teaching experiences as "a project" to benefit others. But I agree that the entry-level videos may be as relevant to pre-sales candidates as new Rev fliers, which (to me) doesn't sit so well in the "premium content" section of a website.

To pick up Kent's comment further: is there a case to ask Revolution to be more explicit about the web site and forum in the printed literature supplied with the Rev kites? They might wish to caveat references to 3rd part sites and moderated forums of course - but there is a wealth of (free) post-sales support which Internet-averse fliers may be completely unaware of. It was only a chance remark by another Rev flyer that directed me here after 2 years of ownership and I would not classify myself as Internet-averse in any respect!

[Kitelife]

Points well made on education/copying Kent, no arguments.

As for tutorials, I hope to do 50 or more, covering all aspects of Rev flying, including assembly, flying, team, dogstake, etc.

(see original discussion)

However, as andelscott eludes to, I simply don't have the time to do it for free.

==

A new, updated basic DVD from Rev, I think it's a good idea... Basic assembly, maintenance, flight, control and practice maneuvers.

This is a root topic, separate from the need for advanced tutorials, imho.

[awindofchange]

John,

Sounds pretty awesome and I can't wait to start seeing some of your new video's, your methods and knowledge is always inspiring and wonderful to watch...er...learn from. You will most definitely have to keep us all updated on the progress.

[FortFlyer]

So are you saying that we shouldn't try and educate potential new comers on how to fly a Revolution kite because the design may get copied? I didn't think that the videos/topic was to discuss the building or assembly of the Revolution but more towards the education of flying the Rev's / line management / control and tips. Perhaps I was wrong though. I also think it would be more beneficial to the kiting community if the videos were put up on Youtube or downloadable from the Rev website instead of only being available to Kitelife subscribers. I know of a ton of people here in our group that fly Rev's constantly that aren't subscribers. Also, I would imagine that there would be more potential new Rev customers visiting the Revolution site than a potential new rev flyer becoming a kitelife subscribers to figure out what the Rev kite was. I don't have that data so again, I may be totally wrong here.

I personally don't think that lack of info & instruction on the Rev kites is what will keep them from being copied. If someone (company or otherwise) was serious about copying the kite I would assume that they would just purchase the whole package and they would have everything anyways.

But what do I know....just hope there is some decent wind tonight so I can go out and fly.

Totally agree Kent, One thing that I would incorporate into the Video's at the start maybe middle and at the end is a friendly word

"Be careful of cheap imitations they are out there and you will be disappointed" This would yet another way to educate new flyers the fact that those kites cost half as much for a reason.

One thing I have considered doing now that my son has a HD video cam is do a extensive tutorial on winding and unwinding lines in different methods, Some seem to have difficulty on what can be a simple task once actually shown in detail how 2 minutes of care while winding can save you up to an hour trying to untangle poorly stored lines. I beat that into my sons heads week after week until I was comfortable that they had it stuck in them and now do it second nature.

I'll most likely do it anyway and hold off until I get the go ahead to release it publicly from John or Ben.

But little things like that can make this happen without putting all the pressure on one person to get all the subjects covered make it a family and community project that can be either approved or denied for release by someone.

Edited by FortFlyer, 27 May 2009 - 06:51 PM.

[Love2fly]

There are a lot of great points here.

One thing I've mentioned many times is how valuable just reading and rereading the various threads here on the forum have been. I think all bases have been covered. If not, certainly, any questions will be happily answered with various persepectives of the experienced pilots. Early on, while flying alone, there were times when I found myself in sticky situations and believe it or not, I got out of it by remembering little morsals of info from what I read here.

As Felix has mentioned, putting in the hours to learn the skills is also a key factor.

The pamphlet must remain. It was previously mentioned, but if someone buys one while not at a festival or perhaps on vacation, having the basic setup/flying instruction is priceless. I found myself referring to it after a couple months of flying! It's a great little "cheat sheet".
The videos, with more detailed skills and setup are an absolute necessity, too. If you don't have the time for all of it, John, perhaps various Master Flyers of your choice might be able to film segments for a combined effort... just a thought.

Finally, perhaps we can come up with a top 10 or 20 or whatever of the KEY things to remember. I can't tell you how many times I've told newbies that have just unwound their lines that the lines are not a tangled mess at all, just connect them and fly, making sure the correct handle is in each hand. Staying relaxed, with your arms lower, etc. Having a checklist like that might really reinforce those really important points.

Just my two cents.

Happy flying!

[Sailor99]

Finally, perhaps we can come up with a top 10 or 20 or whatever of the KEY things to remember. I can't tell you how many times I've told newbies that have just unwound their lines that the lines are not a tangled mess at all, just connect them and fly, making sure the correct handle is in each hand. Staying relaxed, with your arms lower, etc. Having a checklist like that might really reinforce those really important points.

Now that would be something that can be done real quick time. Perhaps a new FAQ section of the forum. Individuals could add to it in a proscribed format. Say:

"FAQ : Which side of the sail to the rods go?


Ans: We all put them on the back (except Jonesey)"

Answer to be no more than 100 words. If more words are needed then it is really to FAQs.

That way people who are new to revs (I soooo hate the term newbies - who wants to be a newbie) would have a fast, accessible source for basics (that are not given with the product) which is not verbose, contradictory or repetitive.

[Harrier]

Cant say I'm convinced with the Youtube idea, it is not reliable enough, the sites main purpose is to increase Googles revenue, no telling what adds would appear along side any vid, real smart to see adds for a far eastern copy alongside.
Just tap in Rev tutorial or Revolution tutorial and see how much dross you have to search through, how easy would it be to find a particular vid unless you already knew where to look.
If the vid is to be availabe online it should be via the Revsite.
One thing is for sure you can not beat having someone show you how to, information on existing fliers willing to help a newcomer could be made a lot more accessible.

Edited by Harrier, 28 May 2009 - 01:55 AM.

[Stone in Shoe Bob]

I think it is fair to say that, although it was Watty that started this thread it was me that initiated this debate, with a PM to Watty.

I started the debate because I saw a problem that I thought needed addressing. I raised it with Watty because I thought he was the man for the job and I did it by PM because I realised it could potentially become a bit of a “hot potato” and though I am happy to stand by all I have written on this subject, both privately and on the forum, I didn’t want to drag Watty into any potential backlash without at least discussing it with him first. Watty didn’t put this debate into the public domain without agreeing it with me beforehand. In short I believe we have both behaved honourably here.

I chose to initiate this discussion on the Revolution Forum because I believe it is a Revolution issue. Surely it is in any companies interest to see that there is good support freely available for it’s products, especially for new users. I can see there is a place in the open market for advanced tutorials but the basic ought to be free.

I am composing this post in Word. I have been using MS Office for years, earlier versions came with thick user manuals, but later versions don’t they do however come with an excellent help database. After shelling out their hard earned cash for the product, who would be happy to have to go to a 3rd party supplier to find out how to do even the most basic stuff.

[Jeff]

Cant say I'm convinced with the Youtube idea, it is not reliable enough, the sites main purpose is to increase Googles revenue, no telling what adds would appear along side any vid, real smart to see adds for a far eastern copy alongside.
Just tap in Rev tutorial or Revolution tutorial and see how much dross you have to search through, how easy would it be to find a particular vid unless you already knew where to look.
If the vid is to be availabe online it should be via the Revsite.

Video sharing sites like YouTube are just another distribution method. The question is, what do you want to do with a tutorial video or videos?

Do you want to sell it as a money making venture, or do you want to give the information away to make it easy to access and find and use for anyone for the purpose of driving kiting interest and sales?

If it's the former, you lock it down, put it somewhere that only subscribers can get it or sell a physical media.

If it's the latter, I'd put it everywhere. The point is to make it accessible. You want to see clips from Letterman? You can go to CBS.com, but you can also go to YouTube. You put it where people will see it. Personally, I'd put it on the Rev site, and YouTube, and Vimeo, and several others. Not only will users of those sites be more likely to find it, its search rank will rise being in more places.

[Jeepster]

Producing the suggested tutorials will be a huge undertaking. John should have some avenue of reimbursement for his time, effort and knowledge. When we want to acquire a new skill set, few of us flinch at paying for online, classroom or home-study courses. Why should this be any different?

I don't see why Kitelife can't be the main/prime repository for all of the tutorial videos. The basic - how to unwind lines, set up the kite, balance the handles - would be available to anyone who visits the site. The more advanced tutorials - flic flacks, axels - would be available in the subscriber section. Many business models involve giving free samples to get the individual hooked, and then, charging for additional products/services.

Rev could redirect new comers to the Kitelife site for basic instruction; plus, utilize John's basic work by providing a DVD, and/or a written booklet with each new kite. DVDs would be made available separately for advanced tutorials ... either sold through Rev or Kitelife ... or both.

This approach could be mutually beneficial for Rev and for Kitelife ... it would get new comers hooked on Revs inexpensively. And, once hooked, the rest of us have showen that we are more willing to feed our addiction at the detriment of our children's inheritance.

Many of us have contributed ideas for the makeup of the tutorials. In my case, any help that I've provided is partial payback for the effort John has already expanded on my education ... both on the forum and on the beach.

Cheers,
Tom

[Kitelife]

I'm obviously on board with Tom's outline.

However, I do also agree that the essentials (line management, assembly, basic flight) should be available for free.

[bobw]

Whether youtube, or a link from Rev, the benefits of up-to-date info far outweighs the benfits of a DVD. And I may be biased, but the internet is pretty ubiquitous, especially I think for the majority of Rev's customers.

As someone pointed out, the printed booklet is still needed as a reference, but pales to actually watching a video. Ultimately flying a Rev is a physical skill, and watching someone translates much faster than interpreting a diagram or written document.

As for the forum being a great source of info, it is. *But* there is nothing like having a single source of info. Having to wade thru the forums was a bit tedious at first. If there was one point of a manual that coordinated with the video, it would accelerate the learning curve.

On a similar soap box, I wish there was an official standard set of leaders. Again, it would have made learning faster (in this wind, knot X), as well as integrating w others in a team fly.

[Jeepster]

... On a similar soap box, I wish there was an official standard set of leaders. Again, it would have made learning faster (in this wind, knot X), as well as integrating w others in a team fly.

Bob,

We can't even agree on whether to use a single line for the leader or a double line. Lolly flies with lots of positive, Ben flies with equal leaders and John flies with lots of break ... and we want standardized leaders/knots? Tilting at windmills comes to mind ...

But, we can discard any discussion about using knot 'Q' on top leader and knot 'Z' on the break leader. We should standardize on talking about the amount of break we use. I'm most comfortable with about 5 inches of break for average winds. You might also find 5 inches to be your favorite, but our leader/knot patterns could be completely different and it wouldn't matter.

You're right, this soap box does feel comfortable ... now, where to store it!

Cheers,
Tom

[MrDenny]

As it stands now, it’s kind of like getting a TV and they say here is a free manual on how to turn it on. For $10 you can get a DVD that will show you how to fine tune the colors, resolution, etc on the screen.

I just can’t understand why Revolution is not in front of this. I remember reading in one of Joe H’s bios that the turning point for Revolution kite sales was when he added the video to the sales package. I would think that they would want to upgrade that video every chance they get and make it available free in as many places as possible. This is a very inexpensive form of advertising. With Rev’s existing business relationship with John B. that would be the logical place for Revolution to go to get a quality product made. If John then wanted to include other flyers in his venture he could do that as well. This way everyone gets compensated for their time and those that pay for it reap the benefits. This same business plan could be used for a beginners guide to the most advanced tutorials. We (forum readers) benefit from all this in that there are will be more new Rev Flyers and more folks to fly with all the time. It would be a great place to point someone “thinking” about it.

[beach]

We as a company know of the video problem and agree that new ones need to be made, on that line real videos are neither cheap
nor easy to make but so everyone knows they are in the pipe line and my projected date is late this year. So this does not come back
on me I'm making no promises but there will be new videos in the near future but for now we will have to make due with what we have
of the present, the hands due turn just not at the speed alot of us would like, so please know I'm on it and it will happen..... When
that gets closer to happening I will enlist the help of many of you to add your thoughts and help me to make the best video I can
till then calm down take a deep breath and know I'm on it and it will get done, I have not let you down so far...... Ben

[Felix Mottram]

We as a company know of the video problem and agree that new ones need to be made, on that line real videos are neither cheap
nor easy to make but so everyone knows they are in the pipe line and my projected date is late this year. So this does not come back
on me I'm making no promises but there will be new videos in the near future but for now we will have to make due with what we have
of the present, the hands due turn just not at the speed alot of us would like, so please know I'm on it and it will happen..... When
that gets closer to happening I will enlist the help of many of you to add your thoughts and help me to make the best video I can
till then calm down take a deep breath and know I'm on it and it will get done, I have not let you down so far...... Ben

Well said that man!

Thanks Ben. Good to know you are on the case...

Felix

[MrDenny]

I have not let you down so far...... Ben

So true!!!

[andelscott]

till then calm down take a deep breath and know I'm on it and it will get done, I have not let you down so far...... Ben

Great news and well said.

Please just give us enough warning so we can dry-clean the bow tie and dinner jackets before the (UK) premier screening. Perhaps we can rent a celebrity for the US and UK launches too?

[Stone in Shoe Bob]

I do also agree that the essentials (line management, assembly, basic flight) should be available for free.

Thanks for clearing that up John, right from the start I have been aware that this may turn out to be a bit of a sensitive topic but there is clearly room for improvement on the current situation and I felt it needed addressing.

I appreciate that you are a professional, “a man’s got to eat”, “the labourer is worthy of his hire”, and all that, but if a new member posts saying “it was a low wind day and my kite wouldn’t fly” I have no problem in suggesting he spends $nn on a lighter frame to increase his low end wind range. However if he posts saying “I can’t get my kite in the air” I would be very reluctant to say “go and subscribe to another website to find the answer”

Whilst we are on this forum I feel we have a duty to our hosts to behave our selves. New members come to this forum though the Revolution web site, and that whatever the disclaimers may say, makes us all representatives of the company.

Oh & BTW Sailor I don't and never have seen the term newbie as a derogative term. I feel I have earned my stripes now but it’s not so long ago I was proud to refer to myself as a newbie.

[Watty]

Cant say I'm convinced with the Youtube idea, it is not reliable enough, the sites main purpose is to increase Googles revenue, no telling what adds would appear along side any vid, real smart to see adds for a far eastern copy alongside.
Just tap in Rev tutorial or Revolution tutorial and see how much dross you have to search through, how easy would it be to find a particular vid unless you already knew where to look.
<snip>

Just to throw this out there..... I checked this, and if you search revolution kite tutorials (words in any order), the first 9 things on the list consist of a rev kites playlist, two videos from TravelingLighter, and a bunch of my stuff.