46 replies to this topic

[Watty]

Hello everyone,

Stone in Shoe Bob and I have been talking through PMs about the videos provided by Revolution with their products. As Stone in Shoe Bob says,

the JH one that goes out with the EXPs, SLEs and presumably I's and II's is excellent but now extremely dated. I don't own a B Series but I have seen the DVD and it is okay as far as it goes but I think it could go a little further, I think part of the problem could be down to the fact that the B series was originally aimed at experienced pilots but due to it being a high VFM package it is extremely popular with newbies.

What are your thoughts on these videos?

Edited by Watty, 26 May 2009 - 03:16 PM.

[andelscott]

My recall of the first Rev training video was that (VHS tapes) provided the potential for information overload. DVD allows much better modular structuring and indexing, of course.

Arguably what we really need is a *trainers* video - giving us a progressive and structured method of teaching newcomers to enjoy the Rev from the outset and to build core skills quickly. It is easy to underestimate the benefits of a teacher / mentor when starting out for the very first time.

Joe H has an excellent way of teaching the basic control to absolute newcomers - we saw him at Portsmouth 2008. But of course this was fully interactive, with the 'student' manipulating the handles and Joe mirroring what would happen to the kite (with his hands as 'the kite'). To be honest, if I'd seen him for introductory tuition - or even other Rev flyers - before (or when) I purchased my first Rev, I am quite sure I would have cut my initial learning time down by a few days!

[Stone in Shoe Bob]

I think part of the problem here is that a Revolution kite is a piece of top end kit but unlike a top end duel-line kite, there is no feeder market so a Rev also has to be an entry level kite. People have to learn on top end kit and they will need help.

I am still a relative newcomer to this game, (about 4 years now) and I consider myself extremely lucky, I share a home field with some of the UK's top flyers and have had loads of help, I could never have made the progress I have without them. There are many people out there with nothing like the support I have had. They see a Rev demo at a festival, think that looks fun, buy one get it home and find that though they may have John Berresi’s kite they have neither his skill or his years of experience.

It's at about this time every year that the new posts start appearing, (Watty has put links to two of them in his post above) “I’ve just bought a new Rev and I watched the dvd but I can’t figure out how to …………” and we reply, “Find some experienced fliers close by, there’s nothing like a bit of face to face help”.

Another thing to think about, how many times have we seen Revs on Ebay with the sticks on the front? Every one of those is a potential Rev flier who has given up before they have even figured out how to put the kite together properly.

We’ve all seen the success of Spence’s “Windless with Watty” & “Windy with Watty” and Spence has said that he thinks he has gone about as far as he can for the time being with the Windless series so I suggested that his next project might be maybe “Starting out with Watty” a sort of virtual Face to Face buddy for those newbies out there struggling alone.

Does anybody remember this thread there was some (dare I say it heated) discussion as weather “leading edge up” or “leading edge down” was the correct way to set up. Now I don’t really want to open up that can of worms again, but can we please spare a thought for the newbie who sets up l/e down and is then faced wit the prospect of launching an inverted kite

I know these polls are designed to be secret but I figure I have well and truly laid my cards on the table here. So I may as well say how I voted and why.

How well do you think the Revolution videos get people started?
I voted “okay”. The dvd that came with my 1.5sle was enough to get me in the air but little more.

How should a basic training video be presented?
I voted “Free on You Tube”. If it’s freely available it will not only act as a teaching aid it will also act as a sales device, traders can put You tube links onto their sites and I would have loved to have been able to watch the instruction videos while I was waiting for my first Rev to arrive. Weather or not they go out on dvd as well is a comercial decision and that is down to Rev. I guess if it is free on the internet then it's really a question of how many potential Rev buyers don't have access to the internet.

Is there a need for newer more accessible beginner tutorials?
Without a doubt, especially for those without local support.

[Watty]

After talking with JB, I will not be making any such video. I had forgotten about John's plans, which I will not go into, as it is not my place. However, this poll is still interesting. just to see people's thoughts on the subject.

[Baloo]

I feel there is nothing better than one to ne tutorial.

About the only time I have ever got any of that was at the Non event at Dunstable and the Portsmouth clinic.

The person who is giving the help needs to be able to put it over in an easily understood way. Stephen and his gang have it, as do John and his gang. Jo, goodness I stood and watched him for ages at both Portsmouth and Bristol. He asked me if I wanted to try his kite at Portsmouth, I stupidly replied that I could already fly a Rev (I wish) and was enjoying watching him. Stupid or what!!

Watty I think you "have it" too (whatever "it" is)

Any help for new folks out there (and me) has got to be good.

[LS Kite Stakes]

One of the biggest issues I see with beginners is setup/take down and line management. There are a lot of little tricks that JB discusses at the clinics that never made it into the B series tutorial. Let JB continue with his project, but at the same time also voice your opinions here so he can make informed decisions on how his project should proceed. I am sure any and all good ideas will be appreciated and considered. I would also like to see a book/pamphlet that can be taken to the field as a way of reference, it can be hard to remember everything that was seen once or twice in a video at home. I would like to see any video or book of this type made available for download from the Revolution web site, with references to it mentioned in the materials sent with each kite sold.

[kairusan]

How should a basic training video be presented?
I voted "Free on You Tube". If it's freely available it will not only act as a teaching aid it will also act as a sales device, traders can put You tube links onto their sites and I would have loved to have been able to watch the instruction videos while I was waiting for my first Rev to arrive. Weather or not they go out on dvd as well is a comercial decision and that is down to Rev. I guess if it is free on the internet then it's really a question of how many potential Rev buyers don't have access to the internet.

This. Very much this.

Moreso than anything else that gets voted on/said in this thread, I think this is the single most important thing. When and if new training vids are made, they should be freely distributed via YouTube for all the reasons SiSB eloquently describes, as well as for several more reasons:

1) Far more environmentally friendly than shipping tons of plastic discs around

2) Cheaper for Rev, because they don't have to pay for those plastic discs, shipping them around, and replacing broken ones

3) Very easy to refine and update the vids, so that flyers aren't getting frustrated hopelessly out of date stuff (like the entertaining, but not terribly worthwhile, vid that came with my 1.5s), and so holes can be "patched" once they're discovered (someone mentioned line set-up and takedown, for example)

4) Updated vids are accessible to those of us who have already bought Revs (often with inadequate training vids) without us having to spend additional cash/borrow DVDs from someone/somehow locate a torrent (note: Kairusan and his fictional parent company, Nordyne Defense Dynamics, do not condone Internet Piracy, actual Piracy, and/or the last two Pirates of the Carribean films, which were somewhat okay but total garbage compared to the first one)

5) We, the eensy weensy Rev community, get to exploit the enormous resources of YouTube/Google for our own gain, which is always awesome; and

6) Information wants to be, like, free, or something?

So, yeah. PLEASE post 'em on YouTube. Thanks!

[Jeff]

One other thing...

There was a Rev flier at the fest I was at this weekend. She brought up something that I had not considered, and really, most of us don't think about.

She is deaf, and cannot get the same out of the current video with no captioning.

It would be wonderful if any future project kept that in mind.

[Dano]

I would think that the reverse launch should be included as part of the basics.
Following kite and line setup, and explanation of basic controls.
(not a full reverse launch, just a rotation of the kite on the ground pre-launch)

It was the way i was taught as a beginner about a year ago.
It was no more difficult to learn than all the other new stuff i had to grasp.
It also teaches a bit of control before you ever lift the kite into the air.

just my thought.

-dano

[spotter]

Being in Austraila and when I started flying the rev. I had no one else at all to fall back on to teach me to fly (thats why I am still not that good). When I got a duelie kite, the video that came with that showed me how to do some basic tricks. It showed how your hands should be with a small insert of what the kite was doing. It has been a while now since I have watched the Rev video but I do remember it not being as good.

Any instructional videos really need to keep in mind that there are people that are going to be flying that have to learn of watching things off screens and there is no help from a person being there. I really dont care if it is on a DVD that comes with the kite or if there is something on youtube, however if it is on youtube (or anyother website) you need to let peopel know where they can find this information.

Just my 2cents worth.

[awindofchange]

We also have to remember that there are some people (mostly the elderly) who just don't know how to download video's or don't have internet access but still want to get into flying kites. Also, some people are still on *gasp* dialup and waiting half an hour or longer to finally get the video to load is just not possible...or worse, they only have internet access at work and Youtube has been blocked. The DVD that is included in the package is wonderful as those that don't have internet access or have difficulty browsing can still plug in the video and learn. Also, once people do learn to fly after watching the DVD, they can pass that DVD on to someone else that they meet on the flying field or send it to their brother/sister/other family member or close friend and get them interested in the sport of Revolution flying. It happens, I have seen it and we have sold new Rev's to new pilots because of it. Another advantage is that you can take your portable DVD player (or in-car DVD player) to the park with you and watch at will. This is much easier than hauling a laptop around with you and hoping you can find a wi-fi connection.

I don't think it would be a good idea to get rid of the DVD and just have a download somewhere either on Youtube or Rev's site. After all the cost of the DVD (when purchased in bulk) can be less than a buck to make (after the initial production costs) and shipping the DVD with the kites is not any more expensive than shipping the kites without the DVD. If they want to save cost, I say get rid of the printed manual and include a PDF on the DVD...most people don't even bother with the manual if they have watched the DVD.

I do think it would be very beneficial to Revolution and the kiting community if the DVD was available for download as well as included with the package. The experienced pilots usually purchase the Revs as kite only anyways to save money so that isn't a major problem of extra disks laying around that are never used. I also would like to see some updated content but the content that is on there does a sufficient job - giving a complete newbie the basics to fly.

I would think it to be beneficial as well to put the B-Series advanced DVD online on Youtube or Rev's site or both...we would willing to serve it off of our website. I don't care for it to be only available in the B-Series package (although I have heard of one shop selling the DVD separately when we have been instructed by JB himself that it can only be obtained through purchasing a B-series kite package). I think that if more people seen the advanced DVD, they may opt more towards the B-Series kites over the EXP or 1.5...but that is just my personal opinion.

[andelscott]

We also have to remember that there are some people (mostly the elderly) who just don't know how to download video's or don't have internet access but still want to get into flying kites.

I entirely agree with this sentiment. "Access" is an important factor and having a DVD with the product gives a sense of reassurance to the newbie purchaser: they don't pay anything else to get it, they don't suffer from variable quality Internet connections and "rebuffering" or hit a download cap. Newcomers may buy a kite whilst on holiday or at a festival - why assume they have an Internet connection with them? [Actually they may not have a DVD player either, so *please* retain the printed instructions!!]

Whilst on Jeff's relevant DVD comment - presumably closed-captioning could be deployed for the hearing impaired user - I'm not sure that this would be feasible for the YouTube stream.

By all means put stuff on YouTube - the potential is great - but the playback quality and resolution isn't always that great - so multi-channel and multi-media distribution gets my vote!

[JeffD]

I wonder if in making vids for dvd or u tube some things might be left out as they take up space but might be basic enough that once or twice seen and its done. Or maybe not noticed in the first place.

An example that comes to mind is letting out the lines.
I wonder how many have ended their rev flying at that step or at least got much of their quota for frustraton filled.

There were recent posts on this topic and reminders that what looks like knots are far more likely tangles that will come out by seperating the lines. Being reminded of this really has resulted in more flying time for me. Ouch!

There's nothing like spending an hour getting out knots that never existed!

By tube or dvd or both this type of thing needs, I think, to be covered in detail. Perhaps painful detail. All the little tiny parts broken down. Many would be flyers have no one to ask in person and the little things can be a big problem out on a field alone.

Perhaps an inexpensive as possible dvd for sale with/out a kite that covers things like lines out and in, why LE down, and any of the other stuff that can stop you before you ever have a chance to practice anything.

[Sailor99]

What Bob said (both in his posts and in the quote watty makes).

The only thing I would add, and no disrespect to JB or anyone else, but I would very much support what the bear said about watty having 'it' when it comes to teaching and explanation on video. Using his videos has helped me translate learning into flying better than any other media. I am not too sure what the 'it' is, but Joe also seems to have it when it comes to teaching face-to-face. Remembering the intense confusion when I started, personally I would call it WTF with Watty.

(ps I am not sure you tube and a DVD are mutually exclusive).

Edited by Sailor99, 27 May 2009 - 04:17 AM.

[Aerochic]

As someone who sadly does not have the opportunity to fly with others and attend clinics as much as I would like, I have a few thoughts and opinions on this:

~ Out of all the Rev instruction videos I have seen, the one JH did for the Powerblast has helped me the most. I think having Joe go over that instruction sheet that came in the original Rev Package skill by skill was awesome. That video is well thought out.

~ Having said that, I would like to see Revolution have a video download section on their website as that's the starting point for most people venturing into Rev Flying. The other beauty of that idea would be having the information available to people with varying levels of technology accessible internationally. Not all of us have the same equipment to view it on. Plus the original Rev Dvds are not viewable on newer computers & laptops. Have medium res videos available for free, high quality videos available at a small download fee (to cover the video production cost). I strongly feel that this info needs to come directly from Revolution itself as opposed to YouTube. Also make the video available for purchase on Dvd (not everyone has the same computer-foo to burn their own DVDs. I see this at my day job on a regular basis).

~ Another issue with the instructional videos thus far has been that you have to take a huge amount of information and condense it down into a half hourish video. While I think that's good in a way to prevent it from becoming too overwhelming to a newcomer, I'd also like to see a series of small special video segments targeting certain skills more in detail. Again, this would lend itself wonderfully to a video download section.

[Kitelife]

One thing to consider... Tips regarding assembly and design/flight dynamics which are made available to the public at large (w/out purchase) also provide the potential to educate anyone looking to copy the Rev designs... This is no reason to avoid tutorials altogether (Watty's stuff has been awesome), but it's something to weigh in when deciding what/where to provide.

My plan is to start releasing tutorials one by one a little later this year by way of the Kitelife subscribers section, and eventually, when there are enough, to compile them into a DVD... Main thing I'm waiting or is TK's move, so that we've got more than just my two hands.

[Alex R]

Being in Austraila and when I started flying the rev. I had no one else at all to fall back on to teach me to fly (thats why I am still not that good).

I support Spotter 100%. Flying alone produces a very slow learning curve. More easily accessible help would be very much appreciated.
I am not a member of Kitelife, any tutorials should be available via this forum.

Edited by Alex R, 27 May 2009 - 12:57 PM.

[Felix Mottram]

I support Spotter 100%. Flying alone produces a very slow learning curve. More easily accessible help would be very much appreciated.
I am not a member of Kitelife, any tutorials should be available via this forum.

I am not so sure about the slow learning curve. In 1989 when the Rev first became available I bought one.

Soon afterwards the rest of the Decs got them and soon we were team flying.

Admittedly, it did take the rest of the world a few years to catch up but I am very pleased to see how well everyone is doing now. <grins>

I think that we have recently established that from 'absolute beginner' to 'festival team flier' could take about 100 hours flying time. The main thing is to fly close to experienced fliers and to recognise that 'if they can do it', 'so can you'.

Felix

[awindofchange]

One thing to consider... Tips regarding assembly and design/flight dynamics which are made available to the public at large (w/out purchase) also provide the potential to educate anyone looking to copy the Rev designs... This is no reason to avoid tutorials altogether (Watty's stuff has been awesome), but it's something to weigh in when deciding what/where to provide.

So are you saying that we shouldn't try and educate potential new comers on how to fly a Revolution kite because the design may get copied? I didn't think that the videos/topic was to discuss the building or assembly of the Revolution but more towards the education of flying the Rev's / line management / control and tips. Perhaps I was wrong though. I also think it would be more beneficial to the kiting community if the videos were put up on Youtube or downloadable from the Rev website instead of only being available to Kitelife subscribers. I know of a ton of people here in our group that fly Rev's constantly that aren't subscribers. Also, I would imagine that there would be more potential new Rev customers visiting the Revolution site than a potential new rev flyer becoming a kitelife subscribers to figure out what the Rev kite was. I don't have that data so again, I may be totally wrong here.

I personally don't think that lack of info & instruction on the Rev kites is what will keep them from being copied. If someone (company or otherwise) was serious about copying the kite I would assume that they would just purchase the whole package and they would have everything anyways.

But what do I know....just hope there is some decent wind tonight so I can go out and fly.

[Alex R]

I also think it would be more beneficial to the kiting community if the videos were put up on Youtube or downloadable from the Rev website instead of only being available to Kitelife subscribers. I know of a ton of people here in our group that fly Rev's constantly that aren't subscribers.

Well said, Kent.
As I said previously, I am a "lone" flyer from downunder and see no advantage to be a Kitelife subscriber.

Edited by Alex R, 27 May 2009 - 02:02 PM.