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Competition Format for 2010


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#1 Felix Mottram

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:24 PM

Posted Image<snip>

This particular thread was initiated by North American pilots and AKA topics, regarding how to revitalize what we've got, the discussion prompted new ideas from the other side of the pond (namely Felix) which warrant a spin off exploration on this same forum.

No need to tear down, let's just get the new discussion rolling... Sheesh.



OK I was thinking aloud earlier and now, after Berck, there 'is' an agenda. There were a number of teams at Berck and they all did Arena Presentations as far as I am aware. These were not billed as a competition but I am 'very' aware that all of the teams were trying to present themselves in the best possible light.

We know that some of the teams are able to fly together on a regular basis and so one would expect them to be able to put on a more sophisticated display. The post festival release of videos by some of the teams is actually an extension of the event... and may reach a wider audience again.

The collaboration between the teams in the mega fly was apparently repeated some 26 times during the course of the 9 days of the event. I do not know how many times the teams flew their own arena presentations, but I suspect it was quite a few!

We know that competitions have been formalised to the n'th degree in the past and I would not want to advocate any attempt to impose those type of conditions on the scenario outlined above.

I am asking if anyone could propose a means of judging without impeding the flow of events that seemed so successful at the Berck event. I am thinking that the fliers determine the agenda and ask the judges to respond... <grins>

My main concern about the Berck event was that the arena was packed with parked kites and fliers and that there was a long line of tall closely spaced banners on one side of the arena. Finding space to fly outside the arena was not easy at hight tide. (The Rev arena at Portsmouth was very successful I thought, less so at Bristol due to the constraints of the site and wind direction.)

It is a long time since I have been at STACK event so I will be watching how things go at Rougham on 16th & 17th May taking particular notice of public attendance!

Felix

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#2 Baloo

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 10:13 PM

Maybe we could use a simple "clapometer" Felix ;-)

After all it is the spectators that teams are trying to entertain.

#3 andelscott

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 03:26 AM

Maybe we could use a simple "clapometer" Felix ;-)

After all it is the spectators that teams are trying to entertain.


:clap; :clap; :clap; :clap; :clap; :clap; :clap; :clap; :clap; :clap;

Ah yes - it could become the American Idol / X-Factor of kite flying where popularity and charisma wins out over technical prowess (in many cases).

Even so - there is a particular skill in selecting a music track that acts like a flypaper for an audience, a routine that adds the "ooo" and "aaahhh" factors, as well as the precision in positions and transitions [for any (given) wind conditions]. I'd say that these should *all" be recognised when 'scoring' an entry.

After all, the more that an audience sees, the more difficult it becomes to impress them just performing sterile 'figures'.
Andy

#4 Felix Mottram

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 05:03 AM

<snipped slow hand-clap>

Ah yes - it could become the American Idol / X-Factor of kite flying where popularity and charisma wins out over technical prowess (in many cases).

Even so - there is a particular skill in selecting a music track that acts like a flypaper for an audience, a routine that adds the "ooo" and "aaahhh" factors, as well as the precision in positions and transitions [for any (given) wind conditions]. I'd say that these should *all" be recognised when 'scoring' an entry.

After all, the more that an audience sees, the more difficult it becomes to impress them just performing sterile 'figures'.


I am not actually going to take my original enquiry 'too seriously' and do not disagree with your observations. Reaching a wider audience through the video follow-up was mentioned only partly in jest!

One of the interesting developments in team flying is the asymmetric or abstract figures that are becoming evident... that might go over the heads of the crowd, who knows? <grins>

Performing figures can be like watching paint dry or like musical scales depending on your view point.

I do not know if anyone who is familiar with current STACK/AKA multi line competition rules could comment. I will do some more research anyway!

Felix

#5 RevWizard

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 07:49 AM

I am not actually going to take my original enquiry 'too seriously' and do not disagree with your observations. Reaching a wider audience through the video follow-up was mentioned only partly in jest!

One of the interesting developments in team flying is the asymmetric or abstract figures that are becoming evident... that might go over the heads of the crowd, who knows? <grins>

Performing figures can be like watching paint dry or like musical scales depending on your view point.

I do not know if anyone who is familiar with current STACK/AKA multi line competition rules could comment. I will do some more research anyway!

Felix

Multi line Team competition is definitely covered in the International Sport Kites(ISK) Rules, Judges' and Compulsories Books.
The regulations are the same as Dual line Team. Only the compulsory figures are different.
These books were written by IRBC representatives of AJSKA(Japan), AKA(North America) and STACK(Europe) whom have been approved and officially adopted by them for their competitions. Several other organizations in the rest of the world also use these books. I think China has their own rules.
The ISK books are available at several locations:
- http://www.worldsportkite.com/irbc.htm <--- the official site
- http://www.aka.kite.org/ - you have to search under manuals
- http://johnnmitchell...irbc/index.html
STACK International apparently does not have an up and running web site that I am aware of, though some STACK countries have web sites.
AJSKA's web site is at: http://www.ajska.gr.jp/
The ISK books also exist in translated versions, at least in German, Japanese and Spanish I believe. I wouldn't doubt that there is also a French version by now.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


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#6 Simon

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 10:04 AM

I am not actually going to take my original enquiry 'too seriously' and do not disagree with your observations. Reaching a wider audience through the video follow-up was mentioned only partly in jest!

One of the interesting developments in team flying is the asymmetric or abstract figures that are becoming evident... that might go over the heads of the crowd, who knows? <grins>

Performing figures can be like watching paint dry or like musical scales depending on your view point.

I do not know if anyone who is familiar with current STACK/AKA multi line competition rules could comment. I will do some more research anyway!

Felix


Hi Felix,

Re competition, the only areas I have a concern for is technical difficulty aspect of ballet & what precision figures are used. I was STACK UK head Judge for at least 5 years in which time Airkraft, Skydance, XS & In4Mation were dominant in UK, Europe & the World. I judged 2 World Cups with these teams and my scores at at least one were regarded as the "best" by the chief judge of the event. Shortly after Skydance won thier second World Cup I was given the oppertunity to learn the winning routine. I immediately wanted to go back and change my scores, the difficulty was hugely more than I had thought.

And that was for a simple routine not judged on technical diffculty. I would like to be involved in a discussion on technical difficulty for Multi Line Team Ballet. To have a rountine that is choreographed and works with that music in its elf requires no additional technical difficulty in my opinion, why should it. If you have a ballet that works to the music, would adding a technically difficult move really add to the result. I have seen many routines in competition that worked with the music. I never wanted to see a precision routine with music, thats a precision routine where the technical difficulty aspect should and is covered, and now that difficulty is covered in both disciplines.

Precision figures:-

Most of these were desgined when I was competing & only changed slightly since.
OPEN QUESTION TO THE FORUM
Which figures are suitable for novices?

The Flying Squad

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#7 Felix Mottram

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 10:36 AM

Hi Felix,

Re competition, the only areas I have a concern for is technical difficulty aspect of ballet & what precision figures are used. <snip>


Hi Simon,

I guess it is always going to be down to perception, so a bunch of kites wobbling about may be what is seen but it may be technically difficult to achieve the particular configuration.

Strangely, one of the specific memories that I have of one of the arena mega flies at Portsmouth was the ripple effect through the body of kites as the wind shifted or gusted. In my book that has a 'massive aesthetic value' which is, I would understand, of the type that is outside the remit of current competition configuration.

I'm not setting out to criticise any existing conventions, just interested to know what else might be considered and how.

Felix

#8 Felix Mottram

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 10:37 AM

Multi line Team competition is definitely covered in the International Sport Kites(ISK) Rules, Judges' and Compulsories Books.
<snip>


Thanks John,

I suspected that you might be along to point me in the right direction <grins>

Felix

#9 RevWizard

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 10:58 AM

Thanks John,

I suspected that you might be along to point me in the right direction <grins>

Felix

For something like Berck, I would tend to think it might be better to skip the technical routine of the precision. In other words use the Mix Class as defined in the ISK Rules. Mix class is three compulsory figures followed by a ballet. With the compulsories you really need a moderator who talks about each figure before it is flown. This would and does attract public interest. Without moderation for the compulsories, the public quickly looses interest.
The alternative is to do Ballet only.
Have a talk with Gerard and see what his thoughts are on the subject.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#10 Felix Mottram

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:14 AM

For something like Berck, I would tend to think it might be better to skip the technical routine of the precision. In other words use the Mix Class as defined in the ISK Rules. Mix class is three compulsory figures followed by a ballet. With the compulsories you really need a moderator who talks about each figure before it is flown. This would and does attract public interest. Without moderation for the compulsories, the public quickly looses interest.
The alternative is to do Ballet only.
Have a talk with Gerard and see what his thoughts are on the subject.


Putting it simply, I think that there is a possibility that an event could be organised. The Decorators gave up competition a long time ago so we would not expect to take part in a formal competition but would expect to take part in a collaborative effort/Mega Team presentation.

I am trying to get my head around the possibility of suggesting an informal competition that could take on different aesthetic aspects of the kite flying to those that are addressed currently and how that might be addressed in practice.

I have sent a message to Gerard already and await his reply.

Felix

#11 Simon

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:32 AM

Hi Simon,

I guess it is always going to be down to perception, so a bunch of kites wobbling about may be what is seen but it may be technically difficult to achieve the particular configuration.

Strangely, one of the specific memories that I have of one of the arena mega flies at Portsmouth was the ripple effect through the body of kites as the wind shifted or gusted. In my book that has a 'massive aesthetic value' which is, I would understand, of the type that is outside the remit of current competition configuration.

I'm not setting out to criticise any existing conventions, just interested to know what else might be considered and how.

Felix



I agree re the ripple effect, thats something you dont get with Dual line. We were getting that a lot at Weymouth too. Its really fun to watch.

The meaga flys had so many level at which you could observe, almost like a moving sculpture installation, would have bee good to have had 4 video cameras on each of the four sides then play them back on the fours walls of a room B) and stand in the middle.

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#12 Felix Mottram

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:57 AM

I agree re the ripple effect, thats something you dont get with Dual line. We were getting that a lot at Weymouth too. Its really fun to watch.

The meaga flys had so many level at which you could observe, almost like a moving sculpture installation, would have bee good to have had 4 video cameras on each of the four sides then play them back on the fours walls of a room B) and stand in the middle.


OK, my feeling is that the potential of the Mega Team Fly is far greater than any small number of fliers in multiple teams can achieve in a competition format.

Thank you Simon for helping me realise the observation.

However the discipline required to achieve the potential of the Mega Team Fly can best be achieved by perfecting skills in small groups flying in 'close/organised' proximity.

One of the really good moves that appeared at Berck in the Mega Fly was pulling all the kites very close together. I might get the 100 kite team in 10 x 10 eventually <grins>

It is 'sculpture installation' as in "ART" potentially and the sooner that is recognised by the participants the better!

Felix

#13 Felix Mottram

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 12:26 PM

<snip>
Which figures are suitable for novices?

Anything that they have not yet perfected.

How easy is that?

It goes for everyone else as well without question <grins>

Felix




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