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Under turn from a hover


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#1 Windbag

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 09:58 PM

I've struggled with doing an under turn and keeping from hitting the ground. The kite just wants to follow gravity & keep going down. :wacko:

I'm right handed & the right side seems to be the most under control. The left side is the worst at hitting the ground. I have been trying to slowly guide the Rev around the turn but today realized there may be a simpler way? After 2 hours of practice I realized moving my inside hand toward the kite made the kite move around the outside hand & all I needed to do was time the pull back on the inside hand to send the kite off at a 45 degree angle to the top of the wind window.

Example - Hovering at the top left of the window. Push the right hand forward to make the kite fly CCW & pull the right hand back at the right time to fly the kite to the upper right window. This seems to fly the kite around so it isn't so subject to gravity pulling it to the ground. Is this it or am I making it too simple by not using thumbs forward or back on either hand? Here's a video I did today practicing the under turn in 13 - 16 mph winds with my Rev B vented & 120' lines.



I can see that this move might not work if I'm flying across the top of the window & progressively doing an under turn to fly back to the other side. Back & forth, back & forth. Then I would have to carefully turn to not lose altitude & zig zag toward the bottom of the window while following the leader.

Things are definitely getting better with more practice. :P I can even do an inverted hover slide both left & right some of the time before hitting the ground. VBG Next is the Axel.

Thanks for any wisdom you're willing to share.
Have fun, Ray.

#2 Kitelife

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 10:51 PM

Comments, based on what I saw in the vid:

Fly higher in the window before attempting your under turn... This will give more time to react, taking some of the pressure off and giving you more time to adjust your curve as needed.

Also, fly a *little* further out to the sides.

Also, do your best to keep it all continuous, as opposed to stopping before the turn (as I see on many of them).

Large sweeping movements, attempting to keep an even speed.

Essentially, adjust to simulate the LARGE figure eights of a Rev team follow. ;)

Other than those suggestions, it's actually not bad at all!

Coming along!

==

I imagine you'll still have get over the added feeling of lines crossing yours, but probably nothing that a day of playing with us at WSIKF can't solve. ;)

==

Next step, fly straight lines from R to L and L to R, making a 180 under rotation at each side to head the other way, trying not to lose any altitude as you do so... Another crucial skill for team flying.

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#3 LS Kite Stakes

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 11:26 PM

Looking good Ray! That was one of the biggest lessons I took from the Long Beach clinic was the push/pull turn to keep forward motion and lift while in a follow. I had the same problem you were experiencing when turning under and falling out of the sky. By doing a pull turn you will keep the power and lift in the sail, and can increase speed through the turn instead of losing speed. It also helps with the transfer of hand position (e.g. when flying forward from left to right, left hand is pulled in to counteract gravity, when going right to left, right hand is pulled in) to fly across the wind window without losing altitude. Another thing push/pull turns will help with is doing tip rotation turns while hovering, like turning 180 to face opposite direction during team/megafly maneuvers.
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#4 Choccy

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 11:48 PM

I've struggled with doing an under turn and keeping from hitting the ground. The kite just wants to follow gravity & keep going down. :wacko:

I'm right handed & the right side seems to be the most under control. The left side is the worst at hitting the ground.

Hi this is exactly what I experienced this time last year.

You will get there and eventually you will be turning down on the left side very low to the ground.

In the meantime just get used to raising your kite by pulling back with the appropriate arm to gain altitude as you turn down.

I'm at a stage where I just fly intuitively and so cannot relate in words what you actually have to do (sorry).
But I've written about it in my kitelife blog, so I'll go and have a reread and see what I experienced whilst having a eureka moment.
I'll get back to you.
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#5 Choccy

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 12:20 AM

ok, a quick scan through my blog reveals that you have to pull with your left arm backwards to gain altitude, when turning down on the left side. It's cos us righties have weaker left hands and need a little help with the pulling back.

Maybe also try stepping forwards at the same time to slow the flight for the first few attempts.

best of luck with it all.
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#6 Dean750

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 06:33 AM

I know this is all a lot of words to get through. :P It really is hard to type something readable that you'll understand.

One thing I haven't seen in all the advice so far....

From the hover, or just about any down turn, as you give the brake input to start the turn, let the opposite handle relax on your index finger. (Give more thumb back) In the video the turns are big sweeping turns. I'm not sure if thats on purpous or if thats just what your getting out of your control inputs.
Basically if you give brake to turn and give more thumb back on the oppisite handle the kite will turn much quicker in a shorter distance. You might not be releasing the brake on the non turning hand so the kite doesn't really want to turn.

Just a thought. ;)

Dean

#7 Jonesey

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 06:53 AM

Or get a hold of the PB 2~4 video .... Joe does an excellent job of demonstrating the technique on there ...

#8 Jeff

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 08:07 AM

There are two actions required to make the turn on a track that you desire. First, there is the wrist action. The application of forward and reverse, or accelerate and brake, whatever terminology works for you. That's what will initiate the kite's rotation and start the turn.

However, once the kite does start turning, there is another important action that will change whether the kite turns in place, follows a nice controlled swooping path, or falls to the ground. That is moving your arms in and out...as you're flying horizontally, let's say right to left, your top wing hand (right hand) is closer to you than your left, and this is what gives the kite enough angle and lift to maintain altitude. As the kite turns over, and finally goes in the other direction, you have to switch so that your left hand, the new top wing, is pulled a little closer to you. If you don't, you won't be giving the kite enough lift to overcome gravity.

Making this change over the course of the turn is a big part of keeping the kite in the desired track.

After a while, it becomes kind of intuitive, and hard to describe, but I think what I do is basically pull in with the bottom wing hand over the course of the turn to give it lift as it turns over and becomes the top wing. Of course, this is done in conjunction with your wrists adjusting to affect the speed of rotation depending on whether you are making a large slow turn, or doing a 180 in place and continuing in the other direction.

I hope that gives you something to think about, maybe it will help, but nothing will help more than practice. Trust me, if you just keep doing what you are doing, making small adjustments as you get the feel of it, it will come. Pick an imaginary path in the sky, a smooth line you can visualize, like a figure 8, and just try to fly on it. Over time, you'll stick closer and closer to that line.
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#9 Jim Foster

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 11:00 AM

Ray

What beach were you on when you took the video?
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#10 Windbag

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 05:28 PM

Comments, based on what I saw in the vid:

Fly higher in the window before attempting your under turn... This will give more time to react, taking some of the pressure off and giving you more time to adjust your curve as needed.

Also, fly a *little* further out to the sides.


I was trying to stay in front of the camera for the video. I now see I could have flown wider & higher & stayed on camera. I've invited Jan to come be my video lady but she's resisted so far.


Next step, fly straight lines from R to L and L to R, making a 180 under rotation at each side to head the other way, trying not to lose any altitude as you do so... Another crucial skill for team flying.


Yes, that is the next challenge! Getting my brain to realize I need to switch hands to pull in the upper wing of the kite or gravity takes over & the kite goes to the ground. When I am flying zig zag up from the bottom I just switch my hands to follow the kite. Left end of kite up, left hand on top. Right end up, right hand on top. It doesn't seem to work the same when I'm flying down from the top of the window.

Practice, practice, practice. It's nice that the beach is only 10 miles away from the house.

Thanks for the tips. :)
Have fun, Ray.

#11 Windbag

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 05:34 PM

Looking good Ray! That was one of the biggest lessons I took from the Long Beach clinic was the push/pull turn to keep forward motion and lift while in a follow. I had the same problem you were experiencing when turning under and falling out of the sky. By doing a pull turn you will keep the power and lift in the sail, and can increase speed through the turn instead of losing speed. It also helps with the transfer of hand position (e.g. when flying forward from left to right, left hand is pulled in to counteract gravity, when going right to left, right hand is pulled in) to fly across the wind window without losing altitude. Another thing push/pull turns will help with is doing tip rotation turns while hovering, like turning 180 to face opposite direction during team/megafly maneuvers.

Walt, I think I was a bit behind you at Long Beach. I don't remember working on push / pull turns at all. The added few months & regular flying at the beach has brought me up a level.

Thanks for the tips. :)
Have fun, Ray.

#12 Windbag

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 05:39 PM

ok, a quick scan through my blog reveals that you have to pull with your left arm backwards to gain altitude, when turning down on the left side. It's cos us righties have weaker left hands and need a little help with the pulling back.

Maybe also try stepping forwards at the same time to slow the flight for the first few attempts.

best of luck with it all.


Choccy, thanks for the tips. I will continue to practice & I'm sure the brain / hand connection will come. Some things I do now without thinking I'm sure were a struggle a few months ago. Sweet that things are getting better for both of us with practice.
Have fun, Ray.

#13 Windbag

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 05:52 PM

From the hover, or just about any down turn, as you give the brake input to start the turn, let the opposite handle relax on your index finger. (Give more thumb back) In the video the turns are big sweeping turns. I'm not sure if thats on purpous or if thats just what your getting out of your control inputs.
Basically if you give brake to turn and give more thumb back on the oppisite handle the kite will turn much quicker in a shorter distance. You might not be releasing the brake on the non turning hand so the kite doesn't really want to turn.

Just a thought. ;)

Dean

Dean, this is probably the next thing I have to learn. In my video I wasn't giving any input with thumbs, just pushing in the whole hand -- big wide sweeping turns were the result. I thought that was what I remembered from the mega fly at Long Beach. I now think the turns weren't quite that wide. Probably I was trying to figure out an easy way for some down turns but I will have to learn to tighten up the turns with my thumbs.

Thanks for the tips. B)
Have fun, Ray.

#14 Windbag

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 05:54 PM

Or get a hold of the PB 2~4 video .... Joe does an excellent job of demonstrating the technique on there ...


Jonesy, where do I get the video that might help?

Thanks for the tip.
Have fun, Ray.

#15 Windbag

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 06:11 PM

There are two actions required to make the turn on a track that you desire. First, there is the wrist action. The application of forward and reverse, or accelerate and brake, whatever terminology works for you. That's what will initiate the kite's rotation and start the turn.

After a while, it becomes kind of intuitive, and hard to describe, but I think what I do is basically pull in with the bottom wing hand over the course of the turn to give it lift as it turns over and becomes the top wing. Of course, this is done in conjunction with your wrists adjusting to affect the speed of rotation depending on whether you are making a large slow turn, or doing a 180 in place and continuing in the other direction.

Jeff, as I read this it all sounds familiar as I'm flying side to side up the wind window. Now I need to put that in practice as I'm coming down the window. The challenge is that it seems upside down & backwards. When I pull on the wrong hand I'm on the ground in a flash. I hadn't thought of pulling in on the bottom hand as I start my turn. That might give me more time to think through the turn. :)

Thanks for the tips.
Have fun, Ray.

#16 Jeepster

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 06:13 PM

Choccy, thanks for the tips. I will continue to practice & I'm sure the brain / hand connection will come. Some things I do now without thinking I'm sure were a struggle a few months ago. Sweet that things are getting better for both of us with practice.


Opps, what's this "brain" thing? Everybody has talked about hand/eye coordination, but needing hand/eye/brain coordintion might explain some of my problems.

Actually, I've heard quite a few flyers comment that they've over thought many of the moves. I seem to make the most progress simply goofing around. Listen to music, let my mind drift, and simply keep trying the move until something clicks. This is supposed to be fun, so if frustration starts to set in, I work on something else.

Cheers,
Tom

#17 Windbag

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 06:18 PM

Ray

What beach were you on when you took the video?


Jim, that's Horsfall Beach about 10 miles north of my house in Coos Bay. It's in the sand dunes so there are no headlands to block the wind either from the north or south. Mostly the wind is from the NW or SW. Occasionally there is an E wind which I've never tried as the wind would have to come over a dune to get to the beach. Swirly?
Have fun, Ray.

#18 Sailor99

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 08:42 PM

Like jeepster says, the number of replies may indicate you are tkinking too much. I suggest you just try john's ideas, and continue playing with jeff's suggestion. You will get there - I know because everyone on this forum has been in the same place as you (except watty perhaps who seems to be just great at everything! ;) ).

You would need to borrow the blast DVDto watch up Jonesey's video.
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