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#1 bartman

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 09:19 AM

I've watched the tutorial by JB a dozen times and I think I understand the basic concept however I still have a couple questions.

The tutorial says it is easier to lead into it with a slide. Why is that? Would an inverted hover work just as easy? I ask because I'm thinking about what needs to happen for th axel while still thinking about a slide so to eliminate one might make it easier.

When it comes out what is the immediate control required to keep it in the air and not looking like a dog's breakfast? Is the idea to catch it while inverted and continue the slide or it some other control desired?

I've only attempted this twice with expected results of the kite ending up on the ground. Obviously I will try various things during the process to help me figure it out. I'm still thinking through the movements that will be required. I'm hoping for time again this afternoon if the weather can settle on what it wants to do.

Thanks.

Bart

#2 Sailor99

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 09:39 AM

Sometimes it is easier for me from a slide. Sometimes it is easier from an inverted hover with the pop end slightly raised. Sometimes it is easier from an inverted decent. And sometimes/often I can't axel at all :). I think the point of the slide is that you are already pulling on the side you are going to give slack to, so when you do give slack it stalls the kite a bit more. But ISTBC.

I find it best to catch it inverted then regain your control for a breath of a second then you can do what you want - carry on a slide, do some clock work to contrast the axelor maybe slip in another axel or six. When you are good enough you don't have to pause between axels. At least that is what Steve deroy does ;)

The one thing I would say is don't rush - give the kite time to flatten before you pop it.
Over - Jeremy

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#3 bartman

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 09:55 AM

Sometimes it is easier for me from a slide. Sometimes it is easier from an inverted hover with the pop end slightly raised. Sometimes it is easier from an inverted decent. And sometimes/often I can't axel at all :) . I think the point of the slide is that you are already pulling on the side you are going to give slack to, so when you do give slack it stalls the kite a bit more. But ISTBC.

I find it best to catch it inverted then regain your control for a breath of a second then you can do what you want - carry on a slide, do some clock work to contrast the axelor maybe slip in another axel or six. When you are good enough you don't have to pause between axels. At least that is what Steve deroy does ;)

The one thing I would say is don't rush - give the kite time to flatten before you pop it.


So, in the L-R slide example, left hand all forward first to flatten then right hand all back just slightly later? Or, step forward to flatten then both hands at the same time?

I know it will take a lot of practice. Probably not something I should be trying at this stage, but I need a big and showy goal to work towards!

Thanks.

Bart

#4 Dean750

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 01:15 PM

Something to try next time you go out....
Since you mentioned sliding L to R,

Start your slide on the left edge, as you get just to the middle flick your right pinky down hard and back toward your body while taking a big step or two forward. Just so you don't have to think about it, in this slide the right hand is the trailing wing. The axle will be clockwise.

It may not go completly flat but you should start to get the feel of what you need to do to learn it. There are a couple of ways to do the axle. Give this a try and get back to us. Your either going to have some flat axles, or your going to be one of those that can go flat, but you can also pull out early. I'm an early puller, so I can axle and exit it strait into something in reverse. ;) It's pretty cool.

Get back to us.

Dean

#5 bartman

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 03:45 PM

Something to try next time you go out....
Since you mentioned sliding L to R,

Start your slide on the left edge, as you get just to the middle flick your right pinky down hard and back toward your body while taking a big step or two forward. Just so you don't have to think about it, in this slide the right hand is the trailing wing. The axle will be clockwise.

It may not go completly flat but you should start to get the feel of what you need to do to learn it. There are a couple of ways to do the axle. Give this a try and get back to us. Your either going to have some flat axles, or your going to be one of those that can go flat, but you can also pull out early. I'm an early puller, so I can axle and exit it strait into something in reverse. ;) It's pretty cool.

Get back to us.

Dean


So you are saying to skip the left hand forward and use two big steps instead then do the right hand pull back?

I did something similar today. I thought it would be a benefit to just push the left hand forward and observe the response at the kite. I had some interesting "turns", but consistant "turns" each time I tried this so that was good. I also was able to recover each one so no crash. Trying to break it down into the basic steps to feel those then will work on putting them together. I keep forgetting it is easier to work these things through in the smallest possible steps.

Thanks.

#6 Dean750

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 07:34 PM

So that tells me you may be a early puller outter. LMAO
Next time as you POP that right hand and take a step forward throw that left hand forward at the same time as the POP. The flat part of the axle is based on how far and quick you move forward.
As your working on this, try adding brakes through out the rotation to pull out of the axle.
Sounds to me like your going to axle like I do and like half axles in dual line your going to open up a whole mess of things to do with your axles.

Dean

#7 Dean750

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 07:39 PM

So you are saying to skip the left hand forward and use two big steps instead then do the right hand pull back?

I did something similar today. I thought it would be a benefit to just push the left hand forward and observe the response at the kite. I had some interesting "turns", but consistant "turns" each time I tried this so that was good. I also was able to recover each one so no crash. Trying to break it down into the basic steps to feel those then will work on putting them together. I keep forgetting it is easier to work these things through in the smallest possible steps.

Thanks.


If you pull the left hand in your L to R slide and adjust your right hand brake to keep the plane is a sliding circle. Fairly hard to control when your first trying but as the axle, or half axle these sliding circles open a ton of options for exits.

Dean

#8 bartman

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 08:10 PM

So that tells me you may be a early puller outter. LMAO
Next time as you POP that right hand and take a step forward throw that left hand forward at the same time as the POP. The flat part of the axle is based on how far and quick you move forward.
As your working on this, try adding brakes through out the rotation to pull out of the axle.
Sounds to me like your going to axle like I do and like half axles in dual line your going to open up a whole mess of things to do with your axles.

Dean


Err, I guess so. :huh:

If you pull the left hand in your L to R slide and adjust your right hand brake to keep the plane is a sliding circle. Fairly hard to control when your first trying but as the axle, or half axle these sliding circles open a ton of options for exits.

Dean


Okay, I'm lost.

I did the L-R slide, but just to see the effect on the kite the ONLY thing I did was throw my left control forward. Got this sort of lazy circle and I'm pretty sure it went around a 360 when it was all said and done although now I'm questioning my memory on it. This may be totally useless in terms of an axle, but it helps me to really get that left control away from me.

As I watched the tutorial it is step, left control way out, right control way back then recover which I was unclear on how it would work out. I can stomach the messy exit for the time being. Difficult to perform three things at once. Way worse than walking and chewing gum at the same time.

Bart

#9 FortFlyer

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 08:23 PM

Bart have you watched Johns axel tutorial ?? that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Another thing you can try is doing it near the edge of the window being a slack line trick its difficult to do it heavier winds and in the center until you actually get used to it.

One more thing you can try if you are sliding to the right do it slow as possible and what i sometimes do is right before i pop it i deflate the sail slightly with a small jerk on the left handle then pop into the normal move that will release tension on the sail.

Remember it is a low wind slack line trick, it can be done in higher winds but better results will be had in lower or near the windows edge.

Good Luck,
Jim,
Ft. Taber Park & Brenton Point

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#10 Dean750

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 08:32 PM

For the time being just work on taking that big step forward as you POP the handle full brake and throw the other hand forward. Theres no real worry of breaking anything. You'll get it fairly quick. Axles are not hard. After you do it you'll be wondering what took so long :P

When your sliding L to R and you throw that left hand forward, the kite changes direction doesn't it? L 2 R to right to left?
What I meant was that while in you L to R slide, give a little bit of brake to the left hand. The front wing will start to rise. Pull that left hand in closer to you body and give your right hand less brake but watch that right hand in letting off the brake and the kite should perform a side sliding circle. ;)

Later you'll be doing things like, sliding to a sliding circle 360, at the bottom pop an axle and exit in reverse back around the circle in reverse. All smooth transitions ;)

Dean

#11 Watty

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 08:54 PM

I've watched the tutorial by JB a dozen times and I think I understand the basic concept however I still have a couple questions.

The tutorial says it is easier to lead into it with a slide. Why is that? Would an inverted hover work just as easy? I ask because I'm thinking about what needs to happen for th axel while still thinking about a slide so to eliminate one might make it easier.

When it comes out what is the immediate control required to keep it in the air and not looking like a dog's breakfast? Is the idea to catch it while inverted and continue the slide or it some other control desired?

I've only attempted this twice with expected results of the kite ending up on the ground. Obviously I will try various things during the process to help me figure it out. I'm still thinking through the movements that will be required. I'm hoping for time again this afternoon if the weather can settle on what it wants to do.

Thanks.

Bart


Watch out for my tutorials. You never know when I may make something useful :lol:
*cough* sometime this week *cough* :devil:

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#12 bartman

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 08:59 PM

Bart have you watched Johns axel tutorial ?? that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Another thing you can try is doing it near the edge of the window being a slack line trick its difficult to do it heavier winds and in the center until you actually get used to it.

One more thing you can try if you are sliding to the right do it slow as possible and what i sometimes do is right before i pop it i deflate the sail slightly with a small jerk on the left handle then pop into the normal move that will release tension on the sail.

Remember it is a low wind slack line trick, it can be done in higher winds but better results will be had in lower or near the windows edge.

Good Luck,


I'm probably in too much wind today. With the short lines and little wind on Saturday it flattened out, it just didn't stay in the air either. Yes, I've watched the tutorial many times and have tried to get the three movements all happening at once. The problem, though for me, is not understanding what JB is doing in the vid, but having myself do the same thing. Not the same thing as seeing it done in person and be able to follow along. The other problem is I want to over think it just like snap turns. Those have been driving me nuts far more than this. The axel is something to understand, but I'm not frustrated by it yet. Just need to wrap my head around it. It is most helpful to confirm that I shouldn't try this unless I have really light winds where I can get the slack. Knowing that will save time. I'll need to force myself to use the short lines more often when the wind is light.

Bart

#13 Dean750

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 09:12 PM

The only real difference between light and high wind is what comes first and how far and quick you move forward.
Light wind you can almost take a step back as you give the initial pop and then move forward for slack. Most of the time in light wind I won't even take a step forward. The leaning of my upper body is enough for the rotation.
Higher winds you start moving forward before the pop and after the pop throw BOTH hands forward as you run forward two steps.
The kite does NOT have to be perfectly flat to be considered an axle. Not yet anyway. They get flatter as you learn.

Dean

#14 Sailor99

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 10:28 PM

Sorry Bart, it was our bed time over here. Keeping it really simple for the moment. Paractice in light winds near the edge of the window. Slide left to right. Push with left hand and step forward. This will stall and flatten the kite. After a pause give a pull with the right mainly pulling on the brake. Step back to recover line. Be prepared to crash a few times while learning - that's part of the process.

Don't worry about catching it or looking tidy at first. That will cone with muscle memory. If you find it is too complex and you are getting confused forget the slide and do it from an inverted hover with the left side of the kite up a little (that is how Simon dann taught me to do it when I was getting nowhere with the slide)

When watty does a vid it is bound to be top notch tuition - far better than anything I can say or do!
Over - Jeremy

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#15 Aerochic

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 04:24 AM

Somebody fill in the blanks for me here, but I recall someone likening the Axel movement to that of bowling...

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#16 Scott A.

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Posted 13 April 2009 - 10:47 AM

Bartman,
To answer your question, I would say, It is easier to start from a slide because in a slide your kite is not square to your body, like the kite/hands together would be in a straight hover.
from a slide, The trailing wing/hand would be further from your body, staggered hands/wings allows for more leverage In order to get the kite to completely rotate around. remember The leading edge is about 8 ft long, your arms/hands are not quite that. The step forward allows the kite to more easily rotate in slack wind, If you could rotate your hands like the kite is rotating, you should be able to let the kite completely rotate around.
The finish should be hands equal/thumbs forward (Inverted position, then you could stagger hands to continue slide or whatever)
IMO failed axels are from stopping the rotation, another tip would be, since you start the axel by slamming the kite flat/reverse, If you put EXTRA reverse tuning on your handles it will help you start to rotation completely flat. then once you see it, feel it, you can do it more predictably with a more evenly balanced tuning, you have to let the kite rotate, with a quad you can stop the FLAT rotation with just the position (Forward/ reverse) of your handles.
In other words, throwing your one hand back, thumb forward/all reverse to flatten the kite, the other handle should then be rotating thumb back, as to not pull the kite back into flying position (from being flat).
I have been Practicing to axel the rev in this EXACT way since 1998. I hope my words are helpful. I've spent many days. I just didn't have anyone to ask or critique my technique. Dean already knows he's an early puller and my details should explain exactly why.

Try stopping the kite halfway around, Now the kite is (leading edge towards you, FLAT, belly down), then flac both hands (thumbs forward) either into flying position or all the way into a flic position (trailing edge towards you belly up) from that position do a half rotation ( on it's back) back to inverted, a sort of Quad Jacobs ladder. It's sounds crazy but it can be done.
Enough enough. quad jacobs coming to a field near you! TMI
Scott Weider
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#17 Dean750

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 07:23 PM

Just incase you haven't made it that far yet since you've been here in the forum, check out the newest Windy With Watty. Best tutorial I have seen to get you started on the axle.
cough, cough, :P think I've heard the discription before.

Dean :wacko:

#18 Dean750

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 07:44 PM

Scott A.

"Dean already knows he's an early puller and my details should explain exactly why.

Try stopping the kite halfway around, Now the kite is (leading edge towards you, FLAT, belly down), then flac both hands (thumbs forward) either into flying position or all the way into a flic position (trailing edge towards you belly up) from that position do a half rotation ( on it's back) back to inverted, a sort of Quad Jacobs ladder. It's sounds crazy but it can be done.
Enough enough. quad jacobs coming to a field near you!"


So I'm not the only early puller eh? :P
Ok, ok, colaboration.....
I'm stuck on getting it to spin on it's back consistantly. Don't know why I didn't think about a half axle to start the ladder. :big_bangin: I've been doing the Rev version of a back flip and holding it trying to get it to spin. I'll have to give the half axle a try. Thanks for the tip :)

Dean




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