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Inverted flying & hover


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#1 Windbag

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 10:39 PM

I practiced my hover & inverted flying for several hours today. My struggle is with the rocking chair effect. When I take off inverted the Rev 1 starts to rock & it seems the only way to stop it is to put it back on the beach. :huh: It feels like I'm putting even pressure on my thumbs forward & ring finger back. Wind was 5 - 8 MPH increasing to 17 - 20 before high tide forced me off the beach.

I took my camera & made several videos but this one seems to show many of my challenges -- http://www.youtube.c...my_videos_edit2

Any ideas on what causes the wing to flip at about 1:30 of the video.

I actually was able to fly inverted to near the top of the wind window several times - shaky though. The inverted takeoff & hover is the major challenge I decided to master after attending the Long Beach Rev clinic this last weekend.

Gotta do the homework to get better :) .

Thanks for any ideas to help.
Have fun, Ray.

#2 Kite Krusader

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 11:09 PM

Any ideas on what causes the wing to flip at about 1:30 of the video.


Reverse flight is a very sensitive menuever, and over control in the reverse direction can cause a wing to flip.

Inverted Hover
With the kite upside sown on the ground, reverse launch by rotating the top of both handles foward.
As the kite rises to about 4 feet, stop, and hover by releasing the rotation.

This is a difficult mental exercise since "up" is now "down", and "left" is now "right".
Just rember that you are still controlling the direction that the kite moves relative to the kite's top, and bottom.

Since most instability is caused by to much controlling, try to launch, and hover with as little hand rotation as possible.
Holding a hover for 2 to 3 seconds at first is good.

Practice, practice, practice.

Good luck, it will come in time.
Your friendly neighborhood kite flyer.

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#3 FortFlyer

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:13 AM

One thing I can see by the way the kite is reacting is you need a little more reverse setup on your handles.

Another thing is the Rev I is a little bit different animal than a 1.5 the deeper V in the middle of the kite makes it more of a 2 separated wings kind of control that's why it bow ties so easy.

Try either bringing the bottom lines in closer to the handles not sure what you have for adjustments if any if none make a knot about 1/2" away from the bottom D-ring on the bottom leader and try that for more reverse.

A pretty good way of learning the inverted hover is hold your hands down by your hips and press your arms against you tilt your thumbs fwd slightly and take a few steps backwards and adjust the wobble accordingly, After you get the feel of it all it will take is a thumbs fwd hand position and a slight movement from hands in front of you to hands down to your hips for the kite to lift up steady and easily and again practice practice practice.

Less is more and the Rev I turns like a truck so in a sense it should be easier to make minor adjustments over a 1.5 although over control is easier in reverse due to the deep V in the middle.

Good Luck, looks like you have the basics down just a little fine tuning and you'll be dancing upside down. B)
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#4 Sailor99

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 02:34 AM

What the previous two people said. Keep at it, it will come. All of us, all of us have experience what you describe.
Over - Jeremy

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#5 ssm1nw

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 02:37 AM

I am still a novice but am getting to grips with the hover, looks like you are over reacting to the movements.
Less is more as they say to me. Takes some getting used to the fact that the controls are now reversed but you will get there.

A couple of ways i have ben told are

Start by maintaining a normal hover then as u get used to it start by adding 45 degrees to the hover until you eventually get all the way round to inverted
Also if you go to the top of the window as if you are doing a dive stop but move down slowly and slowly put on the brakes evenly, slow down till u stop, very small adjustments on the handles.

I think slow down and use smaller movements to adjust and lots of practice

#6 bartman

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:42 AM

I struggled with the inverted hover for hours. Hours spent trying not to flip it. Now I can do it, but it is not rock steady, but getting better.

The first challenge was the over control. I needed to learn that when inverted even what seemed like small handle movements to me were huge to the kite.

Second was wrapping my head around the control reversal. To do that I would spend time, before even putting the kite in the air, thinking how the kite would respond to the controls and which control was needed to raise and lower a wing.

Third was focusing more on just one wing. If a tip started to move up I controlled just that side to move it back down. Eventually I was able to control both wings.

Fourth was do it over and over and over. If I could get 2 seconds of hover I would call it a good day. Soon it was 5 seconds then 30 then minutes.

It is only the repeated practice that "programs" the handle controls in your mind so you can make the adjustments without thinking about it. When you can do it without thinking about it you have a nice hover.

I got my hover going over about a three month period last fall and that was perhaps 3 hours a week of flying. I can hardly wait to get back out this spring when I will have longer days to perfect it!

Good luck!

Bart

#7 Felix Mottram

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:58 AM

I struggled with the inverted hover for hours. Hours spent trying not to flip it. Now I can do it, but it is not rock steady, but getting better.

The first challenge was the over control. I needed to learn that when inverted even what seemed like small handle movements to me were huge to the kite.

Second was wrapping my head around the control reversal. To do that I would spend time, before even putting the kite in the air, thinking how the kite would respond to the controls and which control was needed to raise and lower a wing.

Third was focusing more on just one wing. If a tip started to move up I controlled just that side to move it back down. Eventually I was able to control both wings.

Fourth was do it over and over and over. If I could get 2 seconds of hover I would call it a good day. Soon it was 5 seconds then 30 then minutes.

It is only the repeated practice that "programs" the handle controls in your mind so you can make the adjustments without thinking about it. When you can do it without thinking about it you have a nice hover.

I got my hover going over about a three month period last fall and that was perhaps 3 hours a week of flying. I can hardly wait to get back out this spring when I will have longer days to perfect it!

Good luck!

Bart


Bart,

That is an excellent explanation. I remember your angst last year.

Best wishes

Felix

#8 Aerochic

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 05:11 AM

Great Advice, Bart! This is something I'm still struggling with and your process makes alot of sense. :blushing:

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#9 Jim Foster

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 08:03 AM

Inverted launch is the best way to learn inverted hover. What most have said before is correct. Over and over and over until your brain takes over and you don't have to think and figure it out. You really don't have time to analyze what you are doing as you are doing it.

After much time and practice it will become as automatic as flying right side up.

Trust me,,,,,,,,,it will.
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#10 Baloo

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 08:56 AM

I used to do that rocking thing, heck if I am honest I still do it. Pretty stylidh huh, you watch JB, he cant do it. Well not in the videos I watch of him anyway. tee hee.

Of course by the sound of the wind it was probably the wrong type of wind.

Or the sand was too wet, dry, sticky, might have been cuz the tide was going in, out. There are SO many things to blame.

If you have plenty of brake in your set up, to the extent that you need to flick you thumbs up to your ears with a step back to make the kite launch normaly, dont forget if you are putting any reverse into it you already have quite a bit applied, even when you are going forwards. (does that actually read as daft as it sounds?)

Honetly it will click all of a sudden, you might not even realise what you are doing right. It will just happen.

If all else fails, turn the handles over, no not realy.

#11 Dean750

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:07 AM

[quote name='Windbag' date='Mar 13 2009, 11:39 PM' post='44752']
I practiced my hover & inverted flying for several hours today. My struggle is with the rocking chair effect. When I take off inverted the Rev 1 starts to rock & it seems the only way to stop it is to put it back on the beach. :huh: It feels like I'm putting even pressure on my thumbs forward & ring finger back. Wind was 5 - 8 MPH increasing to 17 - 20 before high tide forced me off the beach.

When I picked up flying my Rev again in early 2008 all I had was my Rev1 from 1995. I went through this same kinda thing. Heres what helped me with the inverted hover and strait up reverse.

DON'T allow your hands to become still. Very lightly (for lack of a better word) BOUNCE your brake lines. The bouncing is alternating, constant, light and rythmic. Seems to help stabilize the kite. Also, if your not, inverted or right side up if your hands are at 45 degrees it seems to stabilize the kite in forwards or reverse.

When your LE is vertical in either direction you should still be keeping your hands at the same angle. The best discription from me is this.
" Top wing hand - handle should be horizontal, bottom wing hand should be strait up and down. If you can get into the habit of doing this while flying side to side or hovering with the LE vertical you'll notice that the bottom wing won't swing back and forth. It will merely follow the top wing."

Hope that makes sense

Dean

#12 Wobbly

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:30 AM

Hi, I was wondering what frame you were using as it appeared to be quite bendy, when I was learning reverse take off I found it helpfull to use a fairly stiff frame so that the wind pressure on the sail was fairly constant, then I reversed up an inch or two then landed and then gradually reversed up higher as I found it helpfull to have the ground as a reference point, if you only have the one frame try practising reverse/hover in lighter wind's to start with, plenty of other stuff you can do when the wind is stronger, with practice I am sure you will master it, above all else have fun.

#13 Jim Foster

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:25 PM

After watching your video, I would suggest that you don't try to fly so far off the ground. Just launch up 1-2 feet and hold the kite there. If it becomes unstable, put it back on the ground, and start again. After a number of times, when the frustration starts to set in, just fly around and relax for a few minutes. Then go at it again.

Don't frustrate yourself with trying long inverted flights until it becomes more automatic.
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#14 Windbag

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 01:23 PM

Reverse flight is a very sensitive maneuver, and over control in the reverse direction can cause a wing to flip.

Inverted Hover
With the kite upside down on the ground, reverse launch by rotating the top of both handles forward.
As the kite rises to about 4 feet, stop, and hover by releasing the rotation.

Since most instability is caused by to much controlling, try to launch, and hover with as little hand rotation as possible.
Holding a hover for 2 to 3 seconds at first is good.


I've tried this a few times but I guess I get impatient & fly farther. I'll try this next time I get out. It's raining today so I'm home. :wacko:

I wondered if the wing flip was over control but didn't think I was pushing or pulling very hard.

Thanks.
Have fun, Ray.

#15 bobw

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 02:36 PM

I've tried this a few times but I guess I get impatient & fly farther. I'll try this next time I get out. It's raining today so I'm home. :wacko:

I wondered if the wing flip was over control but didn't think I was pushing or pulling very hard.

Thanks.

The Rev acts very differently with the leading edge leading vs inverted. You just cannot drive the inverted side as fast or hard. If you try to "over control" with the LE leading, the worst that seems to happen is a loss of some air and some fluttering/lufting. If you do so inverted, the tip flips and we call it "over controlling". So, as everyone here seems to be saying, its a matter of practice, practice, practice and getting a feel for things. I'm a newbie, but the thing that seems to make sense to me is that we always want to keep the sail full of air. My mistake (when inverted) was that if I wanted more drive, I'd try to overcontrol/tilt/angulate the kite more. The tip that was most helpful to me was the concept of keeping the sail full, and if I want to initiate more drive, to pull back some, either by pulling the arms or body motion.

Good luck! (and I never thought just 3 months ago that I'd find being inverted so much fun)

Bob

#16 Windbag

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:00 PM

One thing I can see by the way the kite is reacting is you need a little more reverse setup on your handles.

Another thing is the Rev I is a little bit different animal than a 1.5 the deeper V in the middle of the kite makes it more of a 2 separated wings kind of control that's why it bow ties so easy.

A pretty good way of learning the inverted hover is hold your hands down by your hips and press your arms against you tilt your thumbs fwd slightly and take a few steps backwards and adjust the wobble accordingly, After you get the feel of it all it will take is a thumbs fwd hand position and a slight movement from hands in front of you to hands down to your hips for the kite to lift up steady and easily and again practice practice practice.

Less is more and the Rev I turns like a truck so in a sense it should be easier to make minor adjustments over a 1.5 although over control is easier in reverse due to the deep V in the middle.

Good Luck, looks like you have the basics down just a little fine tuning and you'll be dancing upside down. B)


FortFlyer, thanks for the input. I was using my 1.5 B handles while flying the Rev 1. Knots were adjusted to just get the kite to take off LE up with sharp pull & step backward as we were taught at the clinic. Of course that was when I set it up in 5-8 MPH winds. By the time I finished the winds were 20+. I remember John advising to add more brake as the winds increase.

I'll try the step back as I launch inverted. I haven't tried that. Stepping forward didn't seem to help.

Thanks.
Have fun, Ray.

#17 Windbag

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:09 PM

I think slow down and use smaller movements to adjust and lots of practice


This is probably key -- smaller movements & more practice.

Thanks.
Have fun, Ray.

#18 mousieo

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:13 PM

there is a lot of good advice here.. but one thing that was told to me by Steve D. at a clinic a year ago..


Breathe.....

seriously, it was the most helpful thing anyone told me.. the tenser you are.. the harder it is.. relax and breathe!!!

#19 Windbag

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:20 PM

I struggled with the inverted hover for hours. Hours spent trying not to flip it. Now I can do it, but it is not rock steady, but getting better.

The first challenge was the over control. I needed to learn that when inverted even what seemed like small handle movements to me were huge to the kite.

Third was focusing more on just one wing. If a tip started to move up I controlled just that side to move it back down. Eventually I was able to control both wings.

Fourth was do it over and over and over. If I could get 2 seconds of hover I would call it a good day. Soon it was 5 seconds then 30 then minutes.

When you can do it without thinking about it you have a nice hover.

I got my hover going over about a three month period last fall and that was perhaps 3 hours a week of flying.


Bartman, I remember you posting about your struggles with inverted hover. It gives me hope to hear you say that it eventually started to work. I like the idea to focus only on one wing at a time.

There are things now that I don't have to think, my hands just do it. I'm looking forward to the hands knowing the inverted hover so they just do it. :P

Thanks for the input.
Have fun, Ray.

#20 Windbag

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:26 PM

I used to do that rocking thing, heck if I am honest I still do it.


If all else fails, turn the handles over, no not really.


Hey, I haven't tried the handle thing yet :P maybe that will work.

Thanks for the laugh & the encouragement.
Have fun, Ray.




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