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#21 RevWizard

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 08:44 PM

Ive debated the quad sticks just because I dont want to put reinforcements on my sails. I understand they are a must to avoid damaging the sail with the pressure from the sticks.

The URL I mentioned earlier does mention some of the advantages in addition to explaining how to install them.
If you can get Guido Maiocchi to join in on this, I am sure he can tell you all the advantages and disadvantages.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

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#22 REVflyer

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:53 AM

disclaimer: Magix Stiks on the back aren't going to make you a master,.... and if you're one already you may not like the difference either!
For the first seven years I laughed at folks using training wheels, then I gave 'em a fair chance and found out I liked it better with, than without. I even use then on my indoor kites now!!!! In my limited quad-line experience of about 10 hours a week since '93, here's my response to the differences question.

larger wind window (kite doesn't fall out of the sky at the edges nearly as easily)

no more bow-tie, (half the wing can't invert over upon itself when teaching lessons)

no walk of shame, (it's much more difficult to snag a flying line)

better float, (you can release the kite entirely when it's inverted and it will glide straight down unattended & slowly)

More stiffness or structure to the kite = easier to dump air and flat spin, flip inside out, 3-D movements, etc

weight increase of the training wheels is offset by the ability to use lighter weight components through-out


For outdoor kites I use point 125 carbon tubes,
long sticks would be half the length of your down tubes, short would be a 1/3.
the tubes are sold at a length of 48 inches, so perfectly cut you'd get three 16 inchers out of the original length

I force a 2MM FSD Nock endcap (not a slotted cap, but the full-hole style) onto the end,
The other end is a LONG vinyl endcap to fit a .125 stick

You need a APA standoff that fits tightly onto your down tubes
I have used hot water to soften the rubbery material, then slide it on and wait for it to cool into place.
I've used vinyl tubing to make stoppers and I've used vinyl electrical tape to hold em in position also if the fit is loose.

You will make a little tiny patch (an inch in diameter) to go underneath the standoff fitting on the back of the sail. Take a matching/or contrasting piece of fabric and coat the back with stripes of 9460 3M adhesive (double sided tape, the stuff is designed to adhere two metals together!!!)
slap it in place and leave a heavy weight on it overnight or carefully iron it using a low setting to fuse in place)

75# to 90# sprectra for the truss lines
You want 'em tight, but no so tight that it adds curvature to the frame. Carefully pass the line thru the end cap hole, insuring the magix stick is centered-vertical and tie off in two directions. You want no knots on the endcaps and no distortion of the frame members! You aren't running four lines but instead it's two, folded in half and secured at the endcap. A couple of wraps around the cap will prevent any slipage.

I position the standoff fitting about 11-1/2 to 12 inches measured down from the leading edge top.

You can go to a lighter and tapered Skyshark tube for the downspars also. I've never broken a Response 12 tube since I began using them. You can buy blemished tubes for a couple of dollars each from the distributor. I've never had one of these fail either and I've been teaching & abusing my own kites for many years.

The last benefit?
If, after a couple of weeks on trial-basis, you don't like it, they're easy to remove. Pull off the stand-off fitting & cut away the truss lines.

#23 Kitelife

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 08:57 AM

I'm not debating Paul's observations here, just commenting as a "non-sticks" user.

larger wind window (kite doesn't fall out of the sky at the edges nearly as easily)

I haven't found the wind window to be any larger, although the kite might be more stable with sticks on the extreme edges... I don't know about the latter, haven't experienced it.

no more bow-tie, (half the wing can't invert over upon itself when teaching lessons)

I don't run into this when I give lessons, but I'm very particular about how my students hold their handles.

no walk of shame, (it's much more difficult to snag a flying line)

Nowadays, I rarely walk down to the kite... There are ways to spin it around, even face-down.

Example... If the kite is upright on the ground, and falls towards me face down... I'll put both handles in my left hand, reach way out with my right and take hold of the right brake line... Leaving the other three lines VERY slack (to stay under the kite as it rotates), I yank the single reverse line and my kite will come around 9 times out of 10.

It takes a little fiddling to get used to, but it's pretty reliable.

better float, (you can release the kite entirely when it's inverted and it will glide straight down unattended & slowly)

The same thing is accomplished without sticks by using heavy brakes (reverse) as it comes down.

More stiffness or structure to the kite = easier to dump air and flat spin, flip inside out, 3-D movements, etc

Aye, this is true... However, the same tricks are doable without sticks using a little more technique.

weight increase of the training wheels is offset by the ability to use lighter weight components through-out

Can you expound on this Pauly?

The last benefit?
If, after a couple of weeks on trial-basis, you don't like it, they're easy to remove. Pull off the stand-off fitting & cut away the truss lines.

Indeed... Although you'll see a little "poke and nudge" between those who use sticks and those who don't, it's ALWAYS a good idea to experiment with EVERYTHING, that's how new styles and tricks come about. ;)

John Barresi

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#24 RevWizard

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 09:16 AM

What I found really good with Guidos modified REV was the consistency and quality of the Flic-Flacs and the axels.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#25 Kitezen

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 12:17 PM

well if the video comes out or rev makes them it would be good i could use them for my messups

What cha mean mess ups, a bad day of kiting is better than a good day at work. I don't think either of us makes that walk too much, except every now and then, my rev stalls and falls. I don't know if these kite sticks would stop that.

#26 Watty

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 06:11 PM

I'm kind of debating weather or not to try this now. It seems like kind of a hassle... I'm too lazy

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#27 MrDenny

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 08:11 PM

I have been kind of afraid to try this because I can just see the vertical spar separating from the spreader and having the spreader go thru the sail. :o

I just ordered a new 1.5 yesterday so perhaps I will get the courage to try it now with the old one. It may be awhile but when I do, It will be fun to have them both set up and do some back and forth to compare.

Denny #12

.. .


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#28 Kitelife

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 08:32 PM

If the sticks are made right and you take a practical amount of care in set up and tear down, it's never a problem.

John Barresi

johnbarresi.com | kitelife.com | learnkites.com | teamiquad.comkitemap.org
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(found in a fortune cookie - possibly an Einstein quote)

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#29 antman

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 04:45 AM

i wonder if you just reforce the area where the connector goes instead of the whole down spar part would that work????
GOD PUT ME HERE. TO ENJOY THE WINDS

#30 Watty

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 06:53 PM

sounds like it would.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#31 beach

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 07:38 PM

Okay Family I need your help, as you know my good friends Sherri and Steve P. have sent me a set of sticks and a video of how to make them and what I need to know from all of you out there if I go thru of all the tooling to make the parts for this and get them out there is there a market? I will say that I personally think they have there place even if I don't use them but can we warrant having them made, <_< hmmmm if only I could see into the future. We are a business so as always I have to look at the big picture, so Family let me have your thoughts on this matter. Also the new Rev T-shirts are being printed as we speak and your going to love them, so remember the only solution is a Revolution........... B) Ben

#32 REVflyer

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:49 AM

I think there is a market for this addition, but I'm only one voice Ben. Many of us on the right coast use them and if they were available commercially I wouldn't have to do it myself for those who want them and have tried out my own kites! I've done dozens of installations, usually on my own nickel too. I often have to give 'em a replacement/custom bridle also, (built closer to the frame for more responsiveness, with a tinier hinge where the two pieces join)

As far as John's question about framing lighter with sticks on the back,
I live inland, so we either get the swirling gusts or no wind at all. The "training wheels" allow a 2 wrap frame in the leading edge and down spars (I prefer Skyshark tapered tubes personally, they're lighter & cheaper), but the kite can withstand a big blow long enough to fly high or move off of center whilst still giving good performance in a dead calm. I enjoy being able to fly while most everyone else watches & complains about the location or conditions. When the District of Columbia gets a steady 5 mile per hour breeze they close the schools for week! Honestly six months out of the year we fly indoors with nature sunlight and unlimited ceilings.

The kite is a lot tighter w/sticks, the sail can't move on the frame as easily, it's just a clean tight sail in a rigid structure. Any stress that is encountered is distributed over a greater surface area. Personally, I don't fly smooth precision generally anyway, I use long throw handles with severe inputs on short lines. You don't want to stand to close to me for fear of accidental impact. I fly aggressively using sharp movements and plenty of them. Flicking it around, dumping the air, jerking it out of the sky, bouncing it off of surfaces like roads, signs, goal posts, sidewalks.

Do you need these structures?
NO, probably not, but you may find them very pleasurable. The worst case senario is, you can remove them with very little wasted investment. Imagine you go to the beach and the wind is howling so hard your pant legs are flappin' madly and the sand/dust being raised obsures your vision below waist high. 35-40 mphs steady + gusts. You put in the SLE tubes, and maybe a set of 3 or 4 wrap down tubes. Your kite is going to handle this abuse and you can fly even everyone else watches. You can even give lessons confidently! The kite is going to crash hard and leading edge down, but the most damage I've ever seen inflicted is the bungies tearing thru the reinforcement patches on the tips of the down spars. That's okay, no frame replacement parts or damaged sail that can't be fixed in an hour with some 3M 9460 Adhesive. Maybe you replace the stretched-out elastics, add a bigger carbon fibre washer behind the knots, or punch new holes. Nothing is torn though, most likely the bungies just passed thru the hole and can be reaffixed right there on the field.

I love teaching quads better than anything else kite related, so these magix stick structures are beneficial to both me and the student. I don't teach the way I fly myself either,.... I want 'em to experience a nice relaxed feeling of control, find your own neutral comfort setting, let the kite do all the work, and for God's sake don't you worry about any damage either! Revs are almost impossible to break over grass or at the beach. Little else is as rewarding as folks telling our membership that they have to join us (WOW Kite Club) and get a Revolution for themselves.

One area of concern is whether to epoxy the stand-off endcaps in place, to prevent loosing the sticks when packin'-up. I prefer to wrap up all the sticks separated from the truss system/sail, then roll it up and hold it closed with a strip of velcro. This way there little chance of a tangled mess next time I set-up. Others glue 'em in place (on the caps) and roll everything together, worrying about untangling later.

About half of my quads are sporting these sticks, the half I use most of the time it seems. On a stack I don't use them because flying a stack isn't about slack lines or aggressive techniques. They'd cause more trouble (tangles) then benefits.

#33 MrDenny

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:03 AM

Ben,
You can put me down for the first order. The only things I kow about them is what I have read here and seen in the online videos. :P They look like fun and isn't that what this is all about?

Denny #12

.. .


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#34 Watty

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:12 AM

Okay Family I need your help, as you know my good friends Sherri and Steve P. have sent me a set of sticks and a video of how to make them and what I need to know from all of you out there if I go thru of all the tooling to make the parts for this and get them out there is there a market? I will say that I personally think they have there place even if I don't use them but can we warrant having them made, <_< hmmmm if only I could see into the future. We are a business so as always I have to look at the big picture, so Family let me have your thoughts on this matter. Also the new Rev T-shirts are being printed as we speak and your going to love them, so remember the only solution is a Revolution........... B) Ben



I think I would eventually buy a set of sticks. But it will be after I have established a good collection. :)

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#35 mcruzzer

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 08:54 AM

Okay Family I need your help, as you know my good friends Sherri and Steve P. have sent me a set of sticks and a video of how to make them and what I need to know from all of you out there if I go thru of all the tooling to make the parts for this and get them out there is there a market? I will say that I personally think they have there place even if I don't use them but can we warrant having them made, <_< hmmmm if only I could see into the future. We are a business so as always I have to look at the big picture, so Family let me have your thoughts on this matter. Also the new Rev T-shirts are being printed as we speak and your going to love them, so remember the only solution is a Revolution........... B) Ben


Ben, I think there's a market. As always, the cost would have to be known. I think the market is relatively small though, compared to the number of Revs that are sold.

Jim
Jim Hodges

#36 RevWizard

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 10:54 AM

Okay Family I need your help, as you know my good friends Sherri and Steve P. have sent me a set of sticks and a video of how to make them and what I need to know from all of you out there if I go thru of all the tooling to make the parts for this and get them out there is there a market? I will say that I personally think they have there place even if I don't use them but can we warrant having them made, <_< hmmmm if only I could see into the future. We are a business so as always I have to look at the big picture, so Family let me have your thoughts on this matter. Also the new Rev T-shirts are being printed as we speak and your going to love them, so remember the only solution is a Revolution........... B) Ben

Ben, I will call you.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!


#37 antman

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 12:24 PM

well if rev makes them to sell i take a set
GOD PUT ME HERE. TO ENJOY THE WINDS

#38 Theresa

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 07:50 AM

Okay Family I need your help, as you know my good friends Sherri and Steve P. have sent me a set of sticks and a video of how to make them and what I need to know from all of you out there if I go thru of all the tooling to make the parts for this and get them out there is there a market? I will say that I personally think they have there place even if I don't use them but can we warrant having them made, <_< hmmmm if only I could see into the future. We are a business so as always I have to look at the big picture, so Family let me have your thoughts on this matter. Also the new Rev T-shirts are being printed as we speak and your going to love them, so remember the only solution is a Revolution........... B) Ben


Hi Ben!

I get requests for these sticks once in a while. So while Scotty Weider was here at The Shoppe a couple weeks ago, he helped list all the parts and components and measurements for me that he uses when he makes a set of sticks for his Revs. You should give him a call. :)

Looking forward to seeing you soon! We have Open House at The Shoppe Friday night @ 6pm to whenever.....so hoping you get an early flight on Friday! I have room at the house for you too! :)

Talk to you soon!
T

#39 antman

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 01:32 PM

ben ill say it again..its a great idea and if you do make them im in for a set but if you do make them will the be just the sticks them selves?? or the tension lines too?? a whole set would be great (sticks tension lines and connectors) but the only down side here is that the current kites rev makes being able to take the quad sticks without renforcement to the sails to accomidate the quad stick set
GOD PUT ME HERE. TO ENJOY THE WINDS

#40 play365

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 02:24 AM

I'll have set or two as long as you can ship to the UK ? :rolleyes:
GARY




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