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Standard Leader lengths


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#1 big bri

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:43 AM

A conversation at the weekend got me thinking[Dave Bs ta blame :P ]

Why arent The leaders on Handles Standerdised to the best Lengths,knots,and materials.

I cant off the top of my head.Think of any other important part of a kite and set up that wouldnt normally be the same.Ive had all lengths of leaders,types,knot spaces,

Is ther a standard and ive missed it.Thers usually three or four of flying together and none of us have the same Leaders.Seems to me it should be Law :) for them tobe the same.I pick up the wrong handles and couldnt get the Brake setting i required as the leaders hadnt been long enough or not adjustment on them.

WADA ya think ,,,,,whats length Best as a standard,Should ther be a recognised standard[if ther isnt]

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#2 RevWizard

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:16 AM

A conversation at the weekend got me thinking[Dave Bs ta blame :P ]

Why arent The leaders on Handles Standerdised to the best Lengths,knots,and materials.

I cant off the top of my head.Think of any other important part of a kite and set up that wouldnt normally be the same.Ive had all lengths of leaders,types,knot spaces,

Is ther a standard and ive missed it.Thers usually three or four of flying together and none of us have the same Leaders.Seems to me it should be Law :) for them tobe the same.I pick up the wrong handles and couldnt get the Brake setting i required as the leaders hadnt been long enough or not adjustment on them.

WADA ya think ,,,,,whats length Best as a standard,Should ther be a recognised standard[if ther isnt]

BRIAN...29GERUPS

When I first started flying REVs there were no leaders. The lines had clips which clipped to the handle rings. I did not like it because of the extra hanging, thus took the clips off the lines and created pigtails for my handles with knots about 2 cm apart. This was in the very early 90s, probably 1991 or 1992. I like the pigtails with 2cm between knots where some others like it 1cm between knots. So, I would say there is no use standardizing it as everyone has there own preference.
When I pickup John B's REV to fly it, I notice his preference for settings is totally different to mine. For me that is perfectly OK, because we are all different. Of course if we were all clones then we would use the same settings, however I do suspect life would become very boring looking at clones of everyone.

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#3 steveb

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:16 AM

The trouble is that not everyone's lines are equalized and the upper lines may be stretched more than the brake lines.
Enough difference in the line lengths makes the setting on the pigtail or length of the leaders irrelevant. If my lines are equalized to 120' top and brake and the guy next to me has lines that had stretched to 120' 6" top and 120' 2" brake, we'd need different settings on the pigtails.

It would be nice if all the handles came with longer leaders, though.

I was very surprised to see the new custom handles still had the old short pigtails. :huh:

#4 Martyjuggles

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:44 AM

P'raps Rev realise that there is such a glorious diversity to the way we all like to set up our kites there's just no point trying to standardise things . . . .except for on the B series which, to be fair, is presumably Mr B's preference.

When they make a Martyjuggles signature series it will come with 15" handles and 10" leaders with knots 1" apart and custom juggling ball pattern sail.. . . . .

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Thinking about a stack . . .

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#5 big bri

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 01:42 PM

Ok,i hear ya all,but.

Lets say all handles come or everyone has a 12inch top and bottom Leader.The knots being an inch apart[Lets just say].

Then everyone can find ther own setting on every pair of handles and not have the situation i had,which was not enough adjustment or long enough leader.
The Clone thing JM mentions is fair comment,but if thers say six of ya and all differing experience and going to fly team together,wouldnt that help with Lift,pace and brake being similar to start,so help with better spaceing.Thus being a similar Flight for each member of the six suad each time you fly,etc,etc.

Or to reverse the theory

If kite one has more lift than an F15 and kite Six has more Brake than a moon shuttle parachute ,wouldnt that hinder the process of good spaceing and pace.

Just a thought

BRIAN...29GERUPS

#6 quaa714

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 03:17 PM

Another thought and one we've talked about before is.....why bother even making top leaders with knots within 4 or 5 inches of the handle? How many of us actually fly with that much forward?
On my older handles, instead of making new leaders right away, I just untied the knots closest to the handles which then served to extend the length of the leaders.

Such a subjective topic.

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#7 big bri

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:22 PM

Another thought and one we've talked about before is.....why bother even making top leaders with knots within 4 or 5 inches of the handle? How many of us actually fly with that much forward?
On my older handles, instead of making new leaders right away, I just untied the knots closest to the handles which then served to extend the length of the leaders.

Such a subjective topic.


Hi bud,
It is a good Topic for debate and individuality is kewl.New ideas and old ones,Share the knowledge and stuff .

Other than the B series handles though.Which i find dont have enough Brake for me and other folk ive flown with.I do think a set standard would be good for leaders and ther make up.However ya like the kite set up.I cant see any harm, only Plus points init.

BRIAN...28GERUPS////YEH BABY B)

#8 awindofchange

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 10:51 AM

One of the things that Revolution really takes great care in is getting new pilots flying Rev's the easiest and least difficult way possible. Adding in longer leaders with multiple knots just makes a lot of un-necessary confusion for someone just starting out in this awesome sport.

The problem would be that once they added in all those extra knots and tons of adjustments, the pilots would all complain:
"Why don't you just make them all the right length!? I don't like having to dump several hundred dollars on a kite and then fine tune it so it will fly! It should fly right out of the package."

Don't forget that these are people who have never flown a Rev before...and would not know how the different settings are going to effect the kite in the first place. In most cases, they would be setting the kite up in a position that would make learning much more difficult or so the kite wouldn't fly at all. This would be very bad for the kites and its ability to be acceptable as an easy kite to fly. Now on the B-Series kites, those do come with adjustable leaders because Rev assumes that the person who is purchasing that kite package is an experienced pilot already and will know how to adjust the kite to fit their style of flying. This is also why the basic packages come with the basic DVD for the new pilot who has never flown before and the B-Series comes with an advanced DVD that doesn't focus mainly on setup and basic controls.

Adding in extra leaders is very cost efficient, usually only costing less than a buck to do by yourself and usually only takes about 10-20 minutes to do. And as mentioned, even if Rev did set up one "Fit-All, Do-All" setting it still wouldn't fit everyone's personal preferences and would eventually be changed anyways.

Just my two cents worth....

#9 big bri

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 11:48 PM

One of the things that Revolution really takes great care in is getting new pilots flying Rev's the easiest and least difficult way possible. Adding in longer leaders with multiple knots just makes a lot of un-necessary confusion for someone just starting out in this awesome sport.

The problem would be that once they added in all those extra knots and tons of adjustments, the pilots would all complain:
"Why don't you just make them all the right length!? I don't like having to dump several hundred dollars on a kite and then fine tune it so it will fly! It should fly right out of the package."

Don't forget that these are people who have never flown a Rev before...and would not know how the different settings are going to effect the kite in the first place. In most cases, they would be setting the kite up in a position that would make learning much more difficult or so the kite wouldn't fly at all. This would be very bad for the kites and its ability to be acceptable as an easy kite to fly. Now on the B-Series kites, those do come with adjustable leaders because Rev assumes that the person who is purchasing that kite package is an experienced pilot already and will know how to adjust the kite to fit their style of flying. This is also why the basic packages come with the basic DVD for the new pilot who has never flown before and the B-Series comes with an advanced DVD that doesn't focus mainly on setup and basic controls.

Adding in extra leaders is very cost efficient, usually only costing less than a buck to do by yourself and usually only takes about 10-20 minutes to do. And as mentioned, even if Rev did set up one "Fit-All, Do-All" setting it still wouldn't fit everyone's personal preferences and would eventually be changed anyways.

Just my two cents worth....

Hi Kent,Fed the Ducks yet :)

Fair point on the New Buyers and beginners.As you say.I think most people will only change to ther personal prefrence ATM.Then as i said Originally.I couldnt get enough brake on someonelses handles.Another two or three knotts would have satisfied anyones extremes on brake.The example also was a team example and how removing the VARIABLES[ :) ].That should then increase a consistant performance and familiarity....perhaps.Like line equalisation.

I personally dont think enough attention is paid to the area .When the main aspects of the kite is on,kite Controlability.Perhaps a rethink on explaining what the leaders do and what a big effect it has on control.....perhaps



Just my 2Ps worth to mate,c u soon Kent


BRIAN...19GERUPS

#10 REVflyer

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 04:37 AM

After you get some experience you'll develop a "style of flight" that is all your own.

This style will be refined as more and more hours of flight are piled up. For me replacing those thick dacron leaders is the first of many steps when acquiring a new Rev. My 1.5 kites aren't flown with the stock bridle, I usually add training wheels and replace the leaders also, such that their overall top length is just short of the gap between the two handle attachment points. The bottom leaders are 1/3 to a 1/4 of the top lengths to get enough braking action.

Longer throw handles get longer leaders. Longer handles help me in low wind conditions which are the norm in the DC Metro area more than half of the year. (we call it indoor flying with an unlimited ceiling!) That means I'm probably on short overall line lengths as well. That all leads to 3D flying, so the longer leaders allow me to reach out farther and not cut my pinkie finger on the raw spectra. (I don't use sleeving, that's just another tangle point!)

All my tuning is done from the bottom leaders, that way the top is a fixed length and muscle memory can take over. I use hi-test bridle line for the leaders, in the 100 pound strength.

I've had folks fly my kites and love 'em, others pronounce them virtually unflyable!!! There's no single correct answer to suit everyone.

#11 Aerochic

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 06:20 AM

REVflyer, wouldn't longer handles require shorter leaders since there's naturally so much reverse going on? I have to admit, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around light wind flying techniques and don't "get" it yet. I've seen you fly at Gettysburg tho in next to no wind, so obviously you've got it worked out wonderfully. ;D

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#12 bobw

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 07:20 AM

As a newbie who started in the wilderness 6 months ago with an EXP, and trying to emulate and follow the video, I would have appreciated some pre made knots. And going down to the "local kite shop" for some leader lines was not an option.

Those handles came w equal length lines, as opposed to the 5-6" longer tops that seem to be in vogue. Trying to fly with my hands like Joe H was doing (on the foam, upper halves) wasn't possible. That setup had so much "up", that finesse seemed out of reach.

Months later, finally got some leader line, figured out that the tops should have variety, added a range of +4 thru +7 and the world *changed*. So, I'd vote firmly onthe side of shipping w some knots on the handles. Or at the very least, something a bit more neutral.

#13 MrDenny

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 07:37 AM

I got a set of the custom handles from Rev and they had the "newbee"' leaders on them too. I was very surprised to see that. I will end up taking off the clips anyway so no big deal. I just never even considered the fact that they would come that way. That leader seems like overkill to me so I was thinking :wacko: I could take the top or bottom leaders and made them single line, which would double the length. I could then put my adjustments on the new longer leader.

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#14 Scott_of_melnsct

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 10:13 AM

That leader seems like overkill to me so I was thinking :wacko: I could take the top or bottom leaders and made them single line, which would double the length. I could then put my adjustments on the new longer leader.



I did exactly that a few weeks ago with the handles that came with my vent. I untied the top lines, retied them single to gain length, and tied a few knots for adjustment. Works great
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#15 REVflyer

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 10:31 AM

REVflyer, wouldn't longer handles require shorter leaders since there's naturally so much reverse going on? I have to admit, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around light wind flying techniques and don't "get" it yet. I've seen you fly at Gettysburg tho in next to no wind, so obviously you've got it worked out wonderfully. ;D



it's about where you want your hands located on the grips and what's comfortable for long flying sessions. For me I like my grips all the way at the top, index finger on the metal tube and thumb behind it. I advise folks to assume you only get one finger and the thumb to form your grip. Imagine how fast you can flick your fingers as opposed to manipulating your wrist movements.

I fly with a pretty aggressive style, the whole smooth and graceful thing is okay for team flying or during competitions. I look like I have ninja weapons in my hands.

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#16 Jeepster

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 02:04 PM

it's about where you want your hands located on the grips and what's comfortable for long flying sessions. For me I like my grips all the way at the top, index finger on the metal tube and thumb behind it. I advise folks to assume you only get one finger and the thumb to form your grip. Imagine how fast you can flick your fingers as opposed to manipulating your wrist movements.

I fly with a pretty aggressive style, the whole smooth and graceful thing is okay for team flying or during competitions. I look like I have ninja weapons in my hands.


Well there's the problem ... look at the picture ... you've got your arms on backwards!!!!

Cheers,
Tom

#17 Felix Mottram

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 02:27 PM

<snip>

I fly with a pretty aggressive style, the whole smooth and graceful thing is okay for team flying or during competitions. I look like I have ninja weapons in my hands.


That is a good picture of 'long arm' flying. I sense that at the moment teams have not taken this style 'on board' completely!

Felix

#18 big bri

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 02:43 PM

:lol:

Well there's the problem ... look at the picture ... you've got your arms on backwards!!!!

Cheers,
Tom



LOL :lol:

Thats a goodn,he gotcha Paul

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#19 REVflyer

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 04:01 AM

That is a good picture of 'long arm' flying. I sense that at the moment teams have not taken this style 'on board' completely!

Felix



Felix, you can't really stand shoulder-to-shoulder around me, . . . but it's even worse in a low wind competition. I've scared the field director a couple of times swinging this long handles around aggressively! With dear friends I've even intentionally banged my buddies in the ribs, to get more personal space or create havoc.

Revs are so much more fun compared to the dualies. The verbal interactions of the fliers & close proximity makes a great show, even without any witnesses.

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#20 Aerochic

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 05:15 AM

Ben Dantonio provided my bride with a kite once, but instructed her NOT to get any lessons from that flailer husband of hers. The world doesn't need any more dangerous quad-line pilots like him!


Those are some serious long arms! And Another flailer eh?! Better not fly next to Ant with those ninja arms, the two of you might flail yourselves into a fine mess. Hee! :lol:

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