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Doubling Up on Leading Edge (B-Series) Question/Problem?


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#1 DB Cooper

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:58 PM

Today I was flying and the winds were a steady 16-20 mph with some higher gusts. I don't have a vented yet so I was flying my standard B-Series. I went to double up the leading edge (2 wrap and 3 wrap) and I found I could only put in the second set in from one side. The other side had an extra stitch that did not allow the second leading edge to fit through. Is this normal? I flew, but I had about an extra inch of leading edge sticking out one side. I was careful not to to any tip stands on that side, and the kite flew good considering the winds. The leading edge did not flex near as much as Jeepsters vented using a 4 wrap LE.

Is that normal? I am debating trying to take a stitch out so I can set the leading edge in evenly. ANy suggestions would be appreciated.

#2 Watty

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:18 PM

That ounds strange to me. I know when I use a double LE in my vtd B-Series, the Le will fit in evenly.

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#3 Jeepster

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:39 PM

That ounds strange to me. I know when I use a double LE in my vtd B-Series, the Le will fit in evenly.


In fairness Watty, let me give you a little more explanation.

There's enough room in the leading edge for two rod sets. But, the edge stitching comes up one side (right side) and closes off the leading edge tunnel so that there's only room for one rod to fit through at that location. Jamie inserted the rod from the more open end and pushed it through until it hit the stitching at the right end. The inserted rod stuck out about 2 plus inches beyond the end of the rod with the end cap on it. He flew it that way ... albeit quite a bit above ground level ... he was leary of hitting the ground on that corner.

I told him we'd put a drop of CA at the junction of the horizontal stitching for the LE tunnel and the hem stitching up the right side of the kite. Then we could remove the stitching that restricts access to the LE tunnel. I have no trouble telling him to do it ... after all it's his kite ... but, he's looking for either support from the Rev group or another idea.

Clear?

Cheers,
Tom

#4 Kitelife

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 08:18 PM

Aye, there was a batch of Rev sails done with that extra stitch you're referring to... It was an initiative made by the sewers without consultation, and was quickly remedied... I'd suggest you carefully cut that stitch, and use some sort of seal or lock down where it ends (check with some of the other fliers for glues or techniques - both for cutting and locking down the stitch).

It's a quick and easy mod, and done right, will not not compromise the integrity or longevity of your sail. ;)

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#5 Jim Dingsdale

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 09:06 PM

I had the same problem, the second leading edge would only go in so far in my full-vent.
Put it in from the other end and it worked fine.
Getting the extra leading edge out should be fun.

#6 Watty

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 09:16 PM

In fairness Watty, let me give you a little more explanation.

There's enough room in the leading edge for two rod sets. But, the edge stitching comes up one side (right side) and closes off the leading edge tunnel so that there's only room for one rod to fit through at that location. Jamie inserted the rod from the more open end and pushed it through until it hit the stitching at the right end. The inserted rod stuck out about 2 plus inches beyond the end of the rod with the end cap on it. He flew it that way ... albeit quite a bit above ground level ... he was leary of hitting the ground on that corner.

I told him we'd put a drop of CA at the junction of the horizontal stitching for the LE tunnel and the hem stitching up the right side of the kite. Then we could remove the stitching that restricts access to the LE tunnel. I have no trouble telling him to do it ... after all it's his kite ... but, he's looking for either support from the Rev group or another idea.

Clear?

Cheers,
Tom


Yes, I knew what he meant. Your saying it was like the one side was closed off enough to where a second LE could not fit.

When I said "The LE will fit in evenly", I meant that it fits in with equal amouts of the LE sticking out of each end.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#7 Sailor99

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 12:02 AM

Yep a few people over here had this issue. A little snip on the field, and some super glue if it is necessary, and all was well. Feels pretty odd to be taking a knife to a new kite though!

I would strongly suggest not flying with one leading edge sticking out too far though. It's just too liable to breakage IMHO
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#8 pudsli

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 03:27 AM

hi all.
rev never heard of quallity control.
who checks the finished product.
all the best steve.
Member of British S.T.A.C.K winter league pairs champs 2006/2007

#9 Kitelife

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 04:19 AM

I've run into occasional quality control issues with pretty much everything I use, kiting or otherwise... It's not specific to Rev.

This isn't to provide any excuse for the ones that "get through", but $ for $ (yes - I buy kites too), the Rev still provides me and many I know with an incredible experience and versatility for flying pretty much anywhere.

The back end support is pretty damned fine however, if it's serious and he's given the opportunity, I've yet to see Ben leave anyone hanging.

Such a short, generalized statement left me with the urge to respond... Nothing personal pudsli, as always.

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#10 FortFlyer

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 04:22 AM

hi all.
rev never heard of quallity control.
who checks the finished product.
all the best steve.


You are kidding right ?? 1 misplaced stitch i'd love to see the inspector that would notice that on black dacron, Maybe a new show called, CSI San Diego or should that be KSI (kite sewing investigation) :lol:

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#11 DB Cooper

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 05:37 AM

Thank you all for the replies. I will work on fixing the one stitch, Jeepster already offered to help me with it.

Sailor99, yeah it does feel very odd to be cutting a brand new kite, maybe I should make it a vented while I'm at it, that way I won't need to double up the LE while I'm at it. Do you recommend cutting all of the grey inner panel out, or leaving a little edging to stop fraying?

Watty - Do the end caps stick far enough out on the main LE rod to protect the other LE, or do you add extra caps so their are no exposed ends? Also, do you put the caps on the top or bottom LE?

pudsli - I will admit at first I was irritated at the issue, but I have not talked to rev about it and nor given them a chance to respond. In all honesty everything I have seen about them they are a great company that is why I chose their product. Everyone seems to have good experiences with them, especially their product support. Judging by JB's response they have already fixed the issue, I was just one of the lucky ones to get a "custom" sail. No biggie, I wouldn't be into kiting if I didn't like futsing (sp?).

#12 pudsli

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 06:13 AM

hi all.
nice one, that got that debate going well.
i know rev make a good product, but it is not like they are making 4000 a day.
i dont think you should have to repair or do anything to the product when you get it.
my rev 1 was all frayed at the edge when i got it from the states.
but the hassle of returning it, was not worth it.
if i had bought it in the u.k, it would have gone back.
keep up the good work.
all the best steve.
Member of British S.T.A.C.K winter league pairs champs 2006/2007

#13 Kitelife

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 07:15 AM

Cheers pudsli, understood. ;)

Odd on the frayed Rev 1, that only happens from handling... Sounds like the kite may have been assembled/disassembled a few times (poorly) before it was shipped over... When I want to keep fraying at bay, I treat (melt) my edges first time out of the bag (2-3 minutes) and never have a problem thereafter.

For sake of discussion, while they're definitely not making 4000 a day, kites are not all that comes out of the Rev factory... Skateboards, canes for the blind, various military contracts, etc, along with continual prototyping on a wide variety of products... Kites are in all actuality, a very small portion of the business.

Again, not excusing, just giving insight... Might as well be 2000 a day, with everything else going on there, and the actual number of people on the premises (I've been in the factory a few times now to see it). ;)

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#14 kairusan

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 08:55 AM

Not to threadjack or anything (except, technically, I am about to do so), but what is the advantage to using doubled up leading edges instead of, say, the 3-Wrap SLE? Should I be looking in to getting a 3-Wrap leading edge to slide in alongside Race Rods on those really windy days where I would otherwise be putting in an SLE?
kairusan

#15 Sailor99

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 09:29 AM

I too have heard of this fabled good back end support although I have yet to see it.

As to venting a STD sail, there is a new thread round here that deals with that far better than I ever could. I would paste in a link but I am on iPhoo. ;)

There would be a lot to be said for having a 3W to go with a RR leading edge. I would certainly invest in the extra rods, possibly even 4W to increase the range.

Isn't there an Internet Standard Term for making challenging statements to over stimulate fori? Something to do with not feeding goblins, or something like that. ;)
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#16 Watty

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:25 AM

Thank you all for the replies. I will work on fixing the one stitch, Jeepster already offered to help me with it.

Sailor99, yeah it does feel very odd to be cutting a brand new kite, maybe I should make it a vented while I'm at it, that way I won't need to double up the LE while I'm at it. Do you recommend cutting all of the grey inner panel out, or leaving a little edging to stop fraying?

Watty - Do the end caps stick far enough out on the main LE rod to protect the other LE, or do you add extra caps so their are no exposed ends? Also, do you put the caps on the top or bottom LE?

pudsli - I will admit at first I was irritated at the issue, but I have not talked to rev about it and nor given them a chance to respond. In all honesty everything I have seen about them they are a great company that is why I chose their product. Everyone seems to have good experiences with them, especially their product support. Judging by JB's response they have already fixed the issue, I was just one of the lucky ones to get a "custom" sail. No biggie, I wouldn't be into kiting if I didn't like futsing (sp?).


When I set it up, the very ends of the extra LE are exposed, but not sticking farther out than the other LE, so there is no problem there. A second set of end caps is not necessary because the friction between the two LEs keeps the extra LE in place.

I usually keep the end caps on the stronger LE (If I am using 3 and 4 wrap LE's, I put it on the 4 Wrap.), and generally I have the stronger LE on the bottom. The reason I do this is because in most cases, I would be flying any kite with a 4 wrap LE before I choose to add in a second LE. So it is actually easiest to just slide the other LE on top of the original.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#17 Jeepster

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:31 AM

I too have heard of this fabled good back end support although I have yet to see it.

As to venting a STD sail, there is a new thread round here that deals with that far better than I ever could. I would paste in a link but I am on iPhoo. ;)

There would be a lot to be said for having a 3W to go with a RR leading edge. I would certainly invest in the extra rods, possibly even 4W to increase the range.

Isn't there an Internet Standard Term for making challenging statements to over stimulate fori? Something to do with not feeding goblins, or something like that. ;)


Ah Jeremy, you've got to stop double posting to pump up your numbers.

Trust me, Jamie won't be cutting up a new B-series to obtain a vented kite. I mean, he had to ask the entire Rev forum if it would be okay to remove a stitch or two. So, taking scissors to an entire panel ... naw. Now if Bazzer was next door ... no, not even then. He's already starting to talk about getting a vented B-series in mid-March.

I was really surprised with the stiffness of the leading edge with both the 2- and 3-wraps installed. My vented with a 4-wrap leading edge was bending much more than Jamie's with his a non-vented sail. The winds went above 20mph several times during our flying and when it did, Jamie took off down wind. It was actually funny watching him being pulled along ... he's not a Papa Smurf size lad. But never did his leading edge bend enough to cause concern.

The only negative I can think of is the possibility of some wear caused by the two rod sets rubbing against each other when the LE flexes. Has anyone commented on that before?

Cheers,

Tom

#18 Martyjuggles

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:42 AM

I too have heard of this fabled good back end support although I have yet to see it.

As to venting a STD sail, there is a new thread round here that deals with that far better than I ever could. I would paste in a link but I am on iPhoo. ;)

There would be a lot to be said for having a 3W to go with a RR leading edge. I would certainly invest in the extra rods, possibly even 4W to increase the range.

Isn't there an Internet Standard Term for making challenging statements to over stimulate fori? Something to do with not feeding goblins, or something like that. ;)


Yep Jeremy - the term is 'troll' - found often in most forum's although rarely found here in my experience. Here's what Wiki have to say:

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Application of the term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem.

Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities. Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".[11]

Frequently, someone who has been labelled a troll by a group may seek to redeem their reputation by discrediting their opponents, for example by claiming that other members of the group are closed-minded, conspirators, or trolls themselves.
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#19 Jim Dingsdale

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:51 AM

Going to fly a five-stack of "B" series Revs and wondered if I should put two leading edges in?
3 wrap or 4 wrap spars for the rest of the stack. Would this work?
Also going to try flying a three-stack with the middle kite upside down. Will use 4 link lines
on the upright spars. Somebody give it a try.
Thought about putting some wheels on kite.

#20 Baloo

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 11:10 AM

5 stack of B's. Hope the wind is good to you Jim.

Flew my 3 stack of 2's in a brisk breeze and it pulled me about.

As far as the upside down middle kit is concerned, wow what an idea.

Hope it works, B sure to let us all know how you get on.




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