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Length of brake lines


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#1 spotter

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:12 PM

Hey guys,

Been looking for some information on this but have been struggling to find a thread about it. I am still new to rev flying so am looking at some very basic information to try and help my flying a lot.

I am after information on the length of the brake lines compared to the forward flight lines. I have tried shortening the brake lines on the handles but adding an extra knot and have found a bit of difference in the flying. I also saw something by kitelife (i think) regarding holding onto the handles in that the pointer finger is for forward flight, middle for hovering and ring finger for backwards flight. I have tried this with a little bit of luck but that would change depending on the length of the brakes.

So really how do you set this length and how do you know when they are set correctly?
Trying to fly "Down Under"

#2 Kitelife

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:19 PM

I think you'll find quite a few of the topics under this search to be very useful...

I just did a forum search for "brake lines".

Perhaps some of the new/intermediate pilots here will recommend specific discussions that have been useful to them. ;)

John Barresi

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#3 bartman

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 06:51 PM

Well, as a new pilot to the B-Series I can tell you that I have put the top lines all the way out from the handle and the bottom lines all the way in and found I improved dramatcially with just about every aspect of flying as a result. I would move the bottom knot out from the handle on occassion when the wind was lighter then finally move the top knot in towards the handle perhaps one knot if the wind got lighter still.

My theories, a lot of them, come from John's posts (Kitelife) regarding thinking of the kite as a sheet of plywood. In light winds there is more pressure on the plywood (sail) than if the plywood is at a greater angle of attack. So, it becomes easier to fly in light wind and to work on hovers.

I also highly recommends John's theory on holding the handles with your three fingers being forward/hover/reverse with thumbs used as required only. You have less of a death grip on the handles which makes for more relaxed hands, shoulders and arms and more relaxed makes for easier learning.

Using these techniques I have managed to get some decent controlled inverted hovers and inverted side slides as well as fly in much lower winds than I have ever done in the past as well as winds on the upper end. It seems impossibl, but even in stronger winds a light grip on the handles is all that is required.

Take it for what you will, but it worked for me.

Bart

#4 REVflyer

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 06:07 AM

a short answer is
the brake line leaders should be one quarter to one third of the length of the top leaders.

adjustments are a personal tuning nature,
but for me I start with the kite inverted on the ground and shorten the brake line leaders until the kite will back-up while inverted

my top leaders dictate the overall lengths for both the top leader and the bottoms. Here's how I approach that length.

Look at the distance between the two connection points on your handles. Well to me, the top leader should be as long as this distance, but not quite touching. The longer the leader, the further out you can reach for catching the kite during 3D moves. (I don't use sleeving and grabbing a handful of spectra is a sure slashing cut into the fold of my pinkie finger!)

My adjustment tuning knots are generally built into the bottom leaders, so the tops are always consistent lengths.

Longer throw handles have longer leaders.

If you don't want to putz with the leaders, you could add lengths onto the top attachment points of the bridle at the kite end. Tuning is easier at your hands though.

I replace the leaders' dacron line with Hi-test bridle line in the 100 pound strength. It's easy to untie, so you can remove all the tuning knots and have one less place to snag or catch during your tricked-out mega sessions.

Now you can see why John wanted a less experienced pilot to answer, instead of someone like me. I do everything backwards based on his instructional guidance. You do what works for you though, there's no wrong answer.

#5 Felix Mottram

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 07:12 AM

<snip>


John said...

"Perhaps some of the new/intermediate pilots here will recommend specific discussions that have been useful to them."

I thought that it was a very sensible suggestion. <grins>

There has to be a balance between 'due diligence' and 'instant gratification' after all!

Bart made observations that were astute as noted previously...

Felix

#6 Alex R

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 12:46 PM

Hey guys,

Been looking for some information on this but have been struggling to find a thread about it. I am still new to rev flying so am looking at some very basic information to try and help my flying a lot.

I am after information on the length of the brake lines compared to the forward flight lines. I have tried shortening the brake lines on the handles but adding an extra knot and have found a bit of difference in the flying. I also saw something by kitelife (i think) regarding holding onto the handles in that the pointer finger is for forward flight, middle for hovering and ring finger for backwards flight. I have tried this with a little bit of luck but that would change depending on the length of the brakes.

So really how do you set this length and how do you know when they are set correctly?


There is another topic at the momont, titled "REV HANDLES", which may also be helpful. :rev_clockwork:

Alex
Melbourne,
Australia.

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#7 Love2fly

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 09:24 PM

Hi Spotter-
Welcome to the forum and the Rev family.
Obviously, what has been previously stated is all useful info. IMHO, an easy way to find what's comfortable for you is to start with the bottom leaders two knots out from the handles and the top all the way out. Now try to fly (if you can fly inverted at this point, launch this way). See how it feels for you. If it's not working for you, bring the top leaders in one knot and give it a shot. You will get the feel for what these adjustments do this way. If you feel like it's close but you're not sure if it should be out that one extra not, bring the bottom in that one knot. Bringing the bottoms in one knot is equal to half of an adjustment or knot on the top leaders. That little bit can make the difference; it has for me. It will take some time and practice, but this should help.
Good luck and enjoy!
Laura
 
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#8 Sailor99

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 12:16 AM

The only thing I would add to the excellent advice from Laura is to keep experimenting after you have found your preferred setting. Things change over time, including your flying style, so it is worthwhile keeping on trying out new stuff rather than getting stuck in a rut - keep learning!
Over - Jeremy

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#9 steveb

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 11:55 AM

It's not rocket science, it's a few knots in 4 lengths of string.
There is no magic or right setting that works for everyone in every wind on every kite.
Just experiment: go a knot one way... better or worse?
If it's better, try another knot in the same direction. Better or worse?
Once it's worse, go the other way. ;)
Keep experimenting until you find a combination that works for you.

#10 Kitelife

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 12:00 PM

However you go, I recommend at least a good solid 15-20 minutes on any given setting, unless it's absolutely unmanageable.

There is an adjustment period, where a flier "settles in" and finds what a setting actually does. ;)

John Barresi

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#11 Felix Mottram

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 01:23 PM

However you go, I recommend at least a good solid 15-20 minutes on any given setting, unless it's absolutely unmanageable.

There is an adjustment period, where a flier "settles in" and finds what a setting actually does. ;)


A 'very' experienced flier may be able to 'fly' a completely incorrectly set-up kite because the 'brain gets wired-up' to compensate if needs be.

Ironically this may have other consequences which I will leave the reader to consider...

Happy Holidays

Felix

#12 Dean750

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 09:10 PM

Since I have been flying with max brake I've noticed that I don't fly any other way. It was something that took some getting used too, but it's one setting that covers all wind variations and even no wind at all.
I have a std. B Series. I have equal length lines and fly all the way out on the top and all in on the bottom of the handles.
The B Series will fly indoors up to (for me) 18 mph. I break out my Rev 1 normally over 12 mph. I'm odd what can I say. But for me it's the one setting on the handles, all in on bottom, all out on top, equal length lines.
The longer you fly the more you'll find that your going to eventually end up flying with maximum brakes. The lines are more nuetral meaning you fly faster forwards, easier in reverse with less hand movment needed and the setting gives the most feeling.

Dean

#13 Love2fly

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:15 AM

I absolutely agree with John, Jeremy and Steve-

You definitely have to give it some time to really get the feel for it. When flying team, sometimes it's a bit easier to bring the top leaders in a bit to get a little extra lift coming out of the bottom part of the figure 8. Down the road as your technique improves (the more subtle stuff; if you're interested in taking it to the next level) you probably won't need to bring the upper lines in; as is the case with iQuad. When I quad ;) , I haven't gotten that fine tuning down yet where I can always keep the sail square to the wind (at that lower point in the figure 8) for mazimum lift. Am I saying this right, John?

Just as has been stated, it's what works for you at a particular point in your skill level. Keep playing to keep growing!
Laura
 
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#14 Kitelife

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:18 AM

That's interesting Laura, I've always found that when teaching, having more forward in the tuning (top lines pulled in) encourages people to crash on that "under turn" in the figure eight, simply because they go into it with too much drive... More brake, and they're more likely to pause, wiggle, and continue through the turn.

It's all relative though, as has been said before, it all depends on what works for you.

I'm the same as Dean, I fly on max brake, all the time... As described in other topics on this forum, iQuad top leaders (adjustments) are 1-2" longer than what comes with the B-Series standard handles... The standard rig actually cannot provide me with enough brake to be comfortable flying.

First thing I do on that rig is tie a knot in the bottom leaders, right snug up to the handle and move the brake line to there... Then, more often than not, I tie a couple of knots in the bottom line sleeving to take in another inch or so.

John Barresi

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#15 FortFlyer

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:31 AM

John you should try what I do on the bottom pigtail of the kite I tie a knot similar to the bottom of the handle about 1/4" away from the bridle, Then tighten real well a drop of superglue then snip off the rest that gives 2" of brake plus the added bonus of keeping the bottom lines closer to the kite during axles and slack line stuff. B)
Jim,
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#16 Love2fly

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:37 AM

That's interesting Laura, I've always found that when teaching, having more forward in the tuning (top lines pulled in) encourages people to crash on that "under turn" in the figure eight, simply because they go into it with too much drive... More brake, and they're more likely to pause, wiggle, and continue through the turn.

It's all relative though, as has been said before, it all depends on what works for you.

I'm the same as Dean, I fly on max brake, all the time... As described in other topics on this forum, iQuad top leaders (adjustments) are 1-2" longer than what comes with the B-Series standard handles... The standard rig actually cannot provide me with enough brake to be comfortable flying.

First thing I do on that rig is tie a knot in the bottom leaders, right snug up to the handle and move the brake line to there... Then, more often than not, I tie a couple of knots in the bottom line sleeving to take in another inch or so.

Thanks, John
Next time out, I'll give it a go.
For whatever reason, at the bottom , coming out of the figure 8, I seem to "run out of gas" and really have to pump it to get it up there. I was told that the sail isn't really square to the wind and that's why I'm losing it. That's just those subtle little things that take a little extra skill to really get, I'm guessing. Is that accurate or is there something else to do? I guess if you're riding the breaks down, going real slow that's where the extra lift is needed. Also, which for me is getting there, is to remember to extend my arms at that point so that I can pull in enough in that one motion to get the lift, too.
Well, something we can work on at TI ;) :P .
Laura
 
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#17 Kitelife

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:44 AM

I'll have to see in person to provide diagnosis. ;)

John Barresi

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#18 Jeepster

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 07:19 AM

... As described in other topics on this forum, iQuad top leaders (adjustments) are 1-2" longer than what comes with the B-Series standard handles... The standard rig actually cannot provide me with enough brake to be comfortable flying.

First thing I do on that rig is tie a knot in the bottom leaders, right snug up to the handle and move the brake line to there... Then, more often than not, I tie a couple of knots in the bottom line sleeving to take in another inch or so.


Another way of adding another inch of length to the top leaders on the B-series is to take out the two inner most knots. Each knot uses about 1/2 inch of leader length, so two knots equals an extra inch. Plus, no one admits to ever having used those knots anyway ... right?

Cheers,
Tom

#19 Kitelife

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 09:58 AM

Right, excellent suggestion Tom, I hadn't even thought of that before! :)

John Barresi

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#20 Madquad

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 01:23 PM

Best thing for me was to remove the "triangles"from the original rev-handles
Drill a new hole right in the middle between the two holes.
and knot a new "pigtail" with the info i found on this website.
The length of the pigtails makes adjustment easy and a LOT of brake is also possible:

http://www.micro-des.../bruhandles.htm

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