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#21 Martyjuggles

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:34 AM

Dean, I'm a little unclear on the handle position at the stake. It seems I remember from my first few trips if I'm going to launch LE up the bottom pigtail has to be around the stake so the kite can lean back with both lines fairly tight. Launching inverted would be the reverse. Or does it really matter if both lines are tight.

I did go to the beach this afternoon & no wind. I assembled the kite lines the way you suggested but could only get a few feet off the ground then back down. I think this way will work for me. Just need some wind.

I did manage to get my lines twisted up & took a while to get untangled. I've been larksheading the ends of the RH & LH lines together at the handle end before winding them on the winder. Do you larkshead both ends in sets so less chance of tangle?

Thanks for your input.


I'm not sure it matters that much with the LE up so long as you push the wing tips forward a few inches. Personally i always hook the top pigtails round the take but it makes sense to do the bottom ones - it's just sometimes the kite sits too far back that way.

As for winding the lines - i always larkshead the lines together at both ends although recently i've taken to leaving the handles on if i'm going to be using the lineset again. This kitelife article gives some really good methods for winding lines - i've been using method 3 with a good deal of success:
http://kitelife.com/...s55/content.php

Hope that helps
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#22 REVflyer

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 03:27 AM

Naturally, I do everything backwards.

I stake down the line-set at the kite (before it is even assembled) then walk upwind unwinding the lines as I go. This way all the twists are taken back to the stake. The handles are left on the ground with both thumbs facing each other, my arms pulled as far apart as possible.

Now you can either check your line lengths or attach to the kite.

Always land or set-up your kite with the leading edge resting on the ground. That's how you will tune your leaders for today's conditions anyway! If the kite will not back-up inverted you don't have enough "DOWN" in your tuning.

To test your line lengths, drop each individual flying line attachment loop over the stake. Go back to the handles and pull 'em snug, do they align perfectly? If not you can shorten the longest one or move your tuning knots until they do match perfectly.

Doing this handle alignment test and leader tuning will make a world of difference.

Again, nobody else I know does it this way and I often wonder why! It seems so logical and insure perfection. If you want to practice one-handed flying you'd better have everything neutral, even and with plenty of reverse in the tuning.

At the end of the day, simply land the kite inverted and walk forward towards it, until it falls flat on the ground. Go take your lines off of the kite and wind 'em up,... either onto a winder card or directly onto the handles (I have more than one pair, so each set of handles has lines for particular sets of conditions). In either case you should occasionally check you line sets for differences/stretch. The easiest way i've found is described above.

If you choose to wind onto the handles remember to pull all 4 lines into the middle of the foam, pinch and wind them as a group tightly round and around. At the last foot or so of length pull them inbetween the foam to lock everything permanently together.

You can figure out a personal method that works for you over time, just keep flying, everything else will work itself out. Many of us learned the hard-way, you have a couple of choices outlined here to prevent our mistakes from happening to you! <LOL>

#23 Watty

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:30 AM

Dean, I'm a little unclear on the handle position at the stake. It seems I remember from my first few trips if I'm going to launch LE up the bottom pigtail has to be around the stake so the kite can lean back with both lines fairly tight. Launching inverted would be the reverse. Or does it really matter if both lines are tight.


In my opinion, when setting up the kite inverted, the top pigtails should be around the stake. The reason for this is that if a big gust comes, the wing tips will always be farther back than the LE. If you do it the other way, (bottom pigtails around the stake) when a large gust comes, it will push the LE further back than the wing tips, causing the kite to self-launch.

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#24 Mike

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:58 AM

Another way to think about it:

Always leave the kite with the leading edge down.
Loop the top pigtails around the stake.

With the top pigtails around the stake, it's like flying with your thumbs back and giving the kite full forward speed.
Since your kite is pointing down, that's full forward speed straight down into the ground. The kite wont go anywhere.

As REVflyer said: if you're having trouble taking off in reverse, try more brake.
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#25 Dean750

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:01 PM

I was basically discribing how to set the kite up from the handles to the kite and then the kite.
I don't larks head the lines at either end. I attach my lines to the handles and wind out. Hold the kite end of the lines after you've wound them out and you can get any twists out. Thats where that inside line is the top line and the outside line is the bottom line. With your handles on the stake facing thumb end at each other thats just how the lines lay without twists.
Attaching your lines to the kite from behind the kite like I discribed and your attaching them while the kite is inverted. No unexpected lift off's. After the kite is attached to the lines you set the kite upright (naturally with this set up the kite is LE up) with no crosses or twists in the lines. Push the bottom tips slightly forward and go back to your handles and fly away. I just put my handles around the stake at the bottom of the foam of the handles. That way when you set your kite up to fly depending on right side up or inverted the handles slide on the stake with the lean of the kite.

I hope this helps some.

Oh, and I know this sounds goofy, but I've taken to winding my lines like dual lines. Two cards, two lines. That way theres less tangles and when setting up you can attach both handles and put them on the stake together unwinding both sets of lines together. Makes set up a lot faster.

Dean

#26 deebs1596

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:18 PM

Oh, and I know this sounds goofy, but I've taken to winding my lines like dual lines. Two cards, two lines. That way theres less tangles and when setting up you can attach both handles and put them on the stake together unwinding both sets of lines together. Makes set up a lot faster.


ohh i wouldnt worry about sounding goofy- i do the same with my lines. had massive tangles 1st time flying quad almost turned me off of quad until i untangled them later that day and got back out the next day. i use 2 winders and do the same thing
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#27 Windbag

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:22 PM

As for winding the lines - i always larkshead the lines together at both ends although recently i've taken to leaving the handles on if i'm going to be using the lineset again. This kitelife article gives some really good methods for winding lines - i've been using method 3 with a good deal of success:
http://kitelife.com/...s55/content.php

Hope that helps


Marty, I have been winding the lines straight on the winder with no figure 8. I've larksheaded the lines at the kite & wind back to the handles keeping the lines tight while winding. This was suggested by mousieo at the Lincoln City Kite Fest. I think it would help to larkshead at the handle end to minimize tangles. I'll try that. I haven't tried leaving the handles on the lines.

# 3 for me as well.

Thanks for your input.
Have fun, Ray.

#28 Windbag

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:35 PM

Naturally, I do everything backwards.

I stake down the line-set at the kite (before it is even assembled) then walk upwind unwinding the lines as I go. This way all the twists are taken back to the stake. The handles are left on the ground with both thumbs facing each other, my arms pulled as far apart as possible.

Now you can either check your line lengths or attach to the kite.


This sounds like a good quick way to see if the handles match up & lines are the same length. I'll try it.

At the end of the day, simply land the kite inverted and walk forward towards it, until it falls flat on the ground. Go take your lines off of the kite and wind 'em up,... either onto a winder card or directly onto the handles (I have more than one pair, so each set of handles has lines for particular sets of conditions). In either case you should occasionally check you line sets for differences/stretch. The easiest way i've found is described above.


Do you stake the handles so you can keep the line tight while winding?

Thanks for the tips.
Have fun, Ray.

#29 Windbag

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:46 PM

In my opinion, when setting up the kite inverted, the top pigtails should be around the stake. The reason for this is that if a big gust comes, the wing tips will always be farther back than the LE. If you do it the other way, (bottom pigtails around the stake) when a large gust comes, it will push the LE further back than the wing tips, causing the kite to self-launch.


OK, Watty. LE down & top pigtail around the stake. I have that in my notes to take to the beach for my next decent wind event.

Thanks for the input.
Have fun, Ray.

#30 Windbag

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:49 PM

ohh i wouldnt worry about sounding goofy- i do the same with my lines. had massive tangles 1st time flying quad almost turned me off of quad until i untangled them later that day and got back out the next day. i use 2 winders and do the same thing


Well, I did order in 4 winders with my kite plus the quad set of lines already on a winder. If the tangles persist I will go to 2 winders as well. Far less time to unwind an extra set than untangle lines, I guess.

Thanks for the ideas.
Have fun, Ray.

#31 bartman

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:57 PM

I attach the kite exactly like Dean describes and it has never went anywhere on its own. I also have, as others here, started using two winders for the lines which takes only a bit longer, but has saved me tons of time dealing with the twists.

Bart

#32 deebs1596

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:03 PM

wow i thought i was the weird one that had my lines on 2 winders for an ID10T error.
----Dan-----

lost in thought or lost in a field... either way send a search party

i fly what i can and stare at what i cant.

#33 bartman

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:30 PM

wow i thought i was the weird one that had my lines on 2 winders for an ID10T error.


With my Rev I I could put all four on one winder without any problems. Much different line back then I guess. Hardly ever had a tangle. With this new stuff it seems like it wants to tangle if I look at it the wrong way so I basically said, "screw this" and started with another winder.

The 120 foot lines I just got are on one winder and unless I use just a piece of wood or something for the time being I'll need to wind on just one. I'm not looking forward to that much.

Bart

#34 deebs1596

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:57 PM

you could machine a scrap piece of wood into a winder, i thought about doing that for the lines that came with the 20th anni...but i'll have to go to my pops house to use his powertools for that
----Dan-----

lost in thought or lost in a field... either way send a search party

i fly what i can and stare at what i cant.

#35 Sailor99

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 01:19 AM

If one is careful when one puts one's lines away, there really shouldn't be a problem with using 1 winder for all 4 lines, if you would prefer not to use two winders. Personally I leave my handles on too. So when it comes to flying time, I just drop my handles onto a stake, walk away with the winder unwinding the lines, attach them to the kite, and I am good to fly. Couldn't be quicker, and to be honest anything that gets me into the air quicker is a very good thing!

When it comes to putting the lines away I detach them from the kite, knot the two pairs together, wind them on in a figure of 8 (although other people (eg JB) do fine without a figure of 8) whilst walking back to the handles on the stake. When I get to the stake I wind the lines down to the handles without taking the handles off the stake. Not taking the handles off stops them wrapping around and in and out of each other! Once all the line is on the winder, carefully pick up the handles, carefully lie them along the winder, wrap the elastic firmly around, and put the whole lot into the bag. Did I say carefully anywhere there? It works for me, and I haven't had a birds nest in ages. I think the last time I had a problem was last winter when it was windy and rainy when I was putting away and I was far from careful. So I only had myself to blame. But other people do it differently, including 2 winders, and that works for them. John Mitchell did a nice photo sequence of how he does it round here somewhere.

At the end of the day, wind your lines in any way you like that works for you, and be damned with what other people say is 'right'. But I would encourage you to try a few ways so that you at least have a choice in deciding what you prefer. For me one winder is the easiest and fastest, but two winders is not a sin.
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#36 Windbag

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 09:31 PM

If one is careful when one puts one's lines away, there really shouldn't be a problem with using 1 winder for all 4 lines, if you would prefer not to use two winders.

At the end of the day, wind your lines in any way you like that works for you, and be damned with what other people say is 'right'. But I would encourage you to try a few ways so that you at least have a choice in deciding what you prefer. For me one winder is the easiest and fastest, but two winders is not a sin.


Bartman, Deebs & Sailor, thanks for your input. I'll stay with one winder for now. I did check my lines today - no wind. One line was 2" longer than the rest. They're all within 1/8" now. I also have each pair larksheaded at each end so that should help. I'm keeping the second winder in reserve for now.

Thanks.
Have fun, Ray.

#37 FortFlyer

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 10:02 PM

I always tell my sons when putting lines back on the winder take an extra minute to do it neat and properly and it will save you 30 minutes untangling them when you really want to fly.

I have always followed what Joe H. said on the first VHS now DVD's that come with a Rev to be law as far as set up take down winding and unwinding, He can't make it any simpler and after all the guy did invent them so I take what he says literally.

What he says about don't worry about tangles is very true when your handles are staked and your out at the end you spread the 2 sets out full arms length and give a little shake 98% of the tangles come out and you usually end up with a few minor twists at the end, 1 hint is to try and have all lines slightly tensioned that helps. By spreading them far apart any twists will be driven toward the handles so its easier to get them out close to you as opposed to looking 30' down trying to figure out whats what.

1 thing when your winding back up put your pinky finger between the 2 sets let the lines run through your hand and use your thumb and forefinger to apply gentle but even pressure and wind easy and even not tight but not loose, no matter how late or how hard its raining it takes 1 minute slower than the fastest you can wind to get it right.

One thing I can say is that Monkey's method of straight winding instead of the figure 8 works well, I usually have no tangles and maybe 1 or 2 twists max doing it that way plus they don't bulk up as much so you can put more line sets in your bag. :kid_content:

Once your in the habit it's like tying your shoes you just do it without thinking.
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#38 Aerochic

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 04:22 AM

Another thing I should add is then when your untangling your lines from the handle end, keep and rotate your handles together as you do so. You will save loads of time and frustration that way. I also favor the Monkey Method of line winding as well....

Here's a great thread that discusses line winding and tangles ad naseum:
http://kitelife.com/.....tangled lines
Here's the Monkey Method:
http://www.kitelife....s55/content.php

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#39 Windbag

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 09:46 PM

1 thing when your winding back up put your pinky finger between the 2 sets let the lines run through your hand and use your thumb and forefinger to apply gentle but even pressure and wind easy and even not tight but not loose, no matter how late or how hard its raining it takes 1 minute slower than the fastest you can wind to get it right.

Once your in the habit it's like tying your shoes you just do it without thinking.


I'll try the finger between the 2 sets of line. You're right about habits forming & you don't even have to think. I've only been out flying the Rev 3 times so few habits yet.

Thanks for your tips.
Have fun, Ray.

#40 Windbag

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 09:49 PM

I also favor the Monkey Method of line winding as well....

Here's a great thread that discusses line winding and tangles ad naseum:
http://kitelife.com/.....tangled lines
Here's the Monkey Method:
http://www.kitelife....s55/content.php


Thanks for the 2 links. Good info. The monkey method works for me as well.

Thanks for the tips.
Have fun, Ray.




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