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B-series Race Rods


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#1 accrk

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 01:19 PM

I have a non-vented B-series and have a few questions for people with the race rods.

1) Under what wind conditions do you take them out and use 2-wrap or 3-wrap frames instead?

2) In the lightest of winds (2-3mph), are 2-wrap rods better than race rods? I know race rods are a bit lighter, but 2-wraps are more flexible and might catch more wind in the sail. Any first-hand experience?

3) If you had race rods and were going to keep one other frame, would it be the 2-wrap or 3-wrap frame? When using the 2-wraps it in conjuction with the race rods in the LE, it can be used in higher winds and still remain quite light for a wide wind range. When using race rods + the 3-wraps, the kite can be conceivably be used with even higher wind capabilities. Which are more useful to have in addition to the race rods?

#2 Jeepster

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 07:36 PM

I have a non-vented B-series and have a few questions for people with the race rods.

1) Under what wind conditions do you take them out and use 2-wrap or 3-wrap frames instead?

2) In the lightest of winds (2-3mph), are 2-wrap rods better than race rods? I know race rods are a bit lighter, but 2-wraps are more flexible and might catch more wind in the sail. Any first-hand experience?

3) If you had race rods and were going to keep one other frame, would it be the 2-wrap or 3-wrap frame? When using the 2-wraps it in conjunction with the race rods in the LE, it can be used in higher winds and still remain quite light for a wide wind range. When using race rods + the 3-wraps, the kite can be conceivably be used with even higher wind capabilities. Which are more useful to have in addition to the race rods?


Wow, I can't believe the race rod sect has not chimed in yet. Let me answer a couple of your questions from the background of a newbie:

1) A great advantage of race rods is that they nominally weight the same as a 2-wrap, but have the strength of a 3-wrap. That means if you're lazy, like me, you can put the race rods in your non-vented kite and never have to change them out. With the normal wrap frame sets and a b-series, you should change from a 2-wrap frame to a 3-wrap frame as the winds increase above ten mph. Since the race rods are light enough for the light winds and strong enough for the heavier winds a single frame set handles all the normal wind conditions ... no changes necessary.

2) Nominally, the 2-wraps and the race rods weight the same ... although manufacturing tolerances may yield a slightly different result for any two specific rod sets. I have one set of 2-wraps that weigh less than my race rods and one set that weights more. Several folks have argued that the stiffer race rods work better than 2-wraps in the lighter winds. I'm still trying to decide, but I'm beginning to think the flatter you can keep the kite in really light winds, the better off you are. Thus, the stiffer race rods do seem to have the advantage in the really light winds.

3) Once the winds get high enough for dual rod sets in the leading edge, the fun factor starts to fall off for a non-vented kite. If you're willing to invest in a race rod set, you're probably hooked on revs and will be buying a vented kite in the near future. The vented B-series comes with a 3-wrap and a 4-wrap frame set. So, to minimize the number of "extra" frame sets, keep your 2-wrap frame set.

Having said all of the above, I think that technique and practice yield a bigger advantage than any of the race rod vs 2-wrap vs gossamer-wrap arguments. I've had Mike Kory fly my kite with the non-high tech stuff in it when the winds were so light I couldn't get it into the air. He made it look easy ... it was so frustrating that it was all I could do not to break his fingers. The more I practice in low winds, the less frustrating they have become ...

Cheers,
Tom

#3 Sailor99

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 08:45 PM

what Tom said. But I would go further. While RRs are great they would be way down my priorities in comparison with owning both a standard and vented sail. Having said that if you have a RRs then your 2W and 3W become largely redundant, although conceivably can be used for doubling up I guess.
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#4 mousieo

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 08:54 PM

All good questions: Some of which I am still figuring out..

One thing I can tell you about the race rods, is that they have allowed me to fly in extremely low wind.. 2 mpr.
I think my favorite combo however, is the vented b with race rods. The control you get with the race rods is fantastic.

If I had a choice between race rods and 2's or 3's... I would get 3's. It will give you more of a range ( my opinion only).
But either way , I would say that the race rods are worth their weight in gold.

Go scape the wind..

#5 accrk

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 09:13 PM

For the sake of argument, let's assume that I'm not getting a vented sail for a long time, and I just want the most versatility from this kite. Unless someone else chimes in with a specific instance, I understand that there is never a reason to use a 2 or 3 wrap frame anymore, so it all comes down to the issue of doubling up the LE.

On this matter, I had two thoughts. On one hand, I think keeping the 3-wrap is better because it will give me more strength and a higher wind range. On the other hand, the strength of the kite may be limited by the single vertical spars anyway so it might be better just to double up with the lighter 2-wraps. Any thoughts?

#6 Sailor99

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 09:25 PM

The RR is as strong as the 3W, so there is no advantage in keeping the 3W from a strength point of view. Also the RR gives a better response than either the 3W or the 2W frames, so there is no point in keeping the 3W or 2W from that point of view. And the RR is lighter than either the 3W and 2W, so again the RR wins. About the only area in which the RR looses is cost. All IMHO of course

So, taking your theoretical point and assuming for the sake of argument that you have the money to buy a race frame but will not have the money to buy a vented. I am also assuming the money needs to be spent as you cannot keep it in the bank because you may loose it ;) In this situation I would suggest that you will get significant benefit (simplicity, less frame changing and better flying capability) from the RR. However the even better course would be to keep the money under the mattress for a week or so, bung the standard on ebay with just the 2W frame and recover the majority of your original investment (and keep a 3W frame as a spare to boot) and to invest the proceeds of the sale and your savings in a vented or semi-vented.

Sometimes people call me contrary ;)
Over - Jeremy

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#7 Dean750

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 09:38 PM

I had the pleasure of flying Mr. Barresi's std. B with Race Rods on 120's. With wind of 1 to 12 I would say thats what you wanna fly. Race Rods with the 3 wrap LE std. rod to stack in upper winds would stretch the wind range of the std. B.
But your still going to be extremly twichy in anything above 10 to 12.
In 0 wind I would still fly with the 2 wrap Pro Only rods as you have mentioned they have the flex. I have taken my B indoors on 50# 15' lines and it will fly indoors. I think the Race Rods indoors or 0 wind would be like flying with an SLE. Too stiff.
So, yes, Race Rods are manditory for flying outdoors. When you get to 6 to 10 mph winds your still in the sweet spot as apposed to flying with the 3 wrap. The 2 wrap in my opinion starts to flex TOO much in those winds so the 3 wrap goes in. Anything above 10 and I have the 3 wrap downs and both LE's in with the 3 wrap in the LE fittings.
Basically what I'm saying is that yes, you do want the RR set. Man they are sweet when theres wind. You'll be able to fly in 1 mph with light wind practice no problem. But keep the 2 wraps around for 0 wind flying.

Dean

I'm going to try and get a light wind demo vid to show what I'm yakin about. I don't have Race Rods, but was given a mind blowing compliment this last weekend in Lincoln City for my light wind flying. It's one thing to wow yourself, but to hear BEAUTIFUL from a god really gets you into the clouds.

#8 accrk

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 09:39 PM

Thanks for the creative answer Sailor99; perhaps a little background is in order: 80% of my flying is in light 5mph wind, so I chose the non-vented sail. My local reseller is letting me trade in a set of 2 or 3 wraps for a discount on the RRs. Hence, my dilemma.

#9 steveb

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 09:50 PM

I love the Race Rods, they are perfect for the winds that I usually fly in. I'm up to 3 sets now.
I use them in my B-Series Standard, Mid-Vent, Vented and Rev I.

#10 Dean750

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 09:52 PM

Thanks for the creative answer Sailor99; perhaps a little background is in order: 80% of my flying is in light 5mph wind, so I chose the non-vented sail. My local reseller is letting me trade in a set of 2 or 3 wraps for a discount on the RRs. Hence, my dilemma.



Give up the 3 wraps if the discount is that important. If not buy the RR set and keep the 2 std. sets. the 3 wrap is replaced with the RR set.

Dean

I fly in winds of 5 or less 90% of the time.

#11 Sailor99

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 11:32 PM

ok understand. That's a good offer from your retailer.

With your light winds probably the most usable configuration is the standard sail with RRs. Then as Dean says, keep the 2W for spares in case of breakages.

Don't discount the semi-vent in 5 to 10 MPH. It is wonderful!
Over - Jeremy

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#12 FortFlyer

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 12:31 AM

Just a little food for thought here as the argument seems to lean toward the race rods being lighter then the 2 wrap and as strong as the 3 wrap.

From what I gathered from the initial thread introducing the Race Rod is that they were a high performance rod with the weight of a 2 wrap with the STIFFNESS of a 3 wrap not strength.

Now from personal experience with these I can tell you they have replaced my 2 wraps completely which are now only used as down spars if needed most are keeping the no longer used SLE's company in a dark closet.

Again when they were introduced they were developed for light wind applications and I can say from 0-8 mph wind they shine like gold, sure some people have flown them up to 16-18 but they loose most of their finesse after 10 IMHO in a standard sail.

In a vented my favorite setup is race rods from 6-12 or 14 mph. Again they were designed to load up and spring back to shape faster which is really helpful in low wind conditions.

In my case they have replaced 2 wraps in yours they may not, they have their purpose but be sure you understand they were not made for 3 wrap strength.

Try searching for Ben's initial post where he explains their development and purpose he explains them very well.
Jim,
Ft. Taber Park & Brenton Point

Rev's are like a carbon framed out-of-body experience

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#13 Jonesey

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 02:31 AM

Have to say my impression was also that RR is a 2 wrap that can go into 3 wrap territory but ultimately 3 wrap is stronger or more importantly will break later....

I take a more pragmatic approach .... My SUL has a 2 wrap frame in, 3 kites in my bag that have race frames in (Standard B., Mid-vent and Eyes) and my Vented B is 3 wrap and home made super-vented has a 4 wrap frame in ..... I cant be arsed to change frames any more, just swap kites as wind speed changes ;)

Only downside is that its good to remove frames once in a while and check ferrules etc...

As its now getting into those dark evenings I might do some bend test on the various rods in 'the lab' (garage) to try and put some real numbers to all our opinions..... might need to sacrifice the odd rod in the name of science :devil:

#14 Jeepster

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 05:43 AM

Thanks for the creative answer Sailor99; ... Hence, my dilemma.



accrk,

Oh yes, perhaps you've figured it out already, but maybe not. When you ask a question that tends towards the spiritual side of revs - which rods are best, which line set is best, which fabric is best, etc. - the number of different answers is usually 20% greater than the number of folks posting. I think some folks do that just to get Jeremy to go off on a tangent ... don't tell him I said so, but that's sometimes the best part of the thread.

Seriously, this is an extremely individual sport ... or is that a sport for extreme individuals? I'm not sure there are any universally agreed upon points within the rev family ... except that it's a great family and flying revs is fantastic. Don't agonize over your decision as a result of the answers in this thread ... none of your alternatives will yield a bad choice. Flip a coin if you must, but make a quick decision and then go fly today ... flying is the best part.

Now where does this soapbox go when one's done with it?

Cheers,
Tom

#15 Sailor99

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 06:03 AM

Oh yes, perhaps you've figured it out already, but maybe not. When you ask a question that tends towards the spiritual side of revs - which rods are best, which line set is best, which fabric is best, etc. - the number of different answers is usually 20% greater than the number of folks posting. I think some folks do that just to get Jeremy to go off on a tangent ... don't tell him I said so, but that's sometimes the best part of the thread.

I think you may be mixing up your mathematics. A tangent of an angle is the ratio of the lengths of the two sides opposite and adjacent to the angle within a right angled triangle. As such, tangents have nothing whatsoever to do with the ratio of the number of different answers given and the number of people posting.

Now, try and stick to the subject Jeepster - RRs in this case......;)
Over - Jeremy

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#16 steveb

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 08:49 AM

I would trade the 2 Wraps in for Race Rods and keep the 3 Wraps.
The Race Rods will fly as light as the 2 Wraps and the 3 Wrap's extra heft helps in some tricks, not to mention they feel a bit less stressed than the Race Rods when the winds pick up.




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