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#21 bartman

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 05:21 PM

I guess I need to understand the physics of it to grasp the contradiction. I do better with cold hard facts not the "touchy-feely" type of control.

Bart

#22 Felix Mottram

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 10:49 PM

I guess I need to understand the physics of it to grasp the contradiction. I do better with cold hard facts not the "touchy-feely" type of control.

Bart


The finer control of the individual wing tips once mastered can provide more accurate adjustment and therefore stability.

Eye/hand co-ordination will eventually bypass the cold hard facts; there will not be time to 'think'.

Felix

#23 Jonesey

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:01 AM

I guess I need to understand the physics of it to grasp the contradiction. I do better with cold hard facts not the "touchy-feely" type of control.

Bart


Bart one other thing based on what Bob was saying about inverted hovers becoming easier then upright ... have you tried using maximum break settings on your leaders? ... if you can hover upright just off the ground easily and you get lots of wobbles inverted I would guess you could do with adding more break....

Like Bob I find the hardest thing to do is hover upright just off the ground (unless there's lots of steady breeze) ... I know this sounds backwards but when you have the handle balance right (Max brake or there about's on standard B leaders), inverted becomes just about the most comfortable, stable mode..... I think what happens is that the kite naturally wants to be leading edge down anyway so as well as putting your hands in a more natural position, there is automatically less tension in the 'top' lines (I obviously mean the ones that would be on top if we weren't inverted!!) and the kite wants to rise, so your inputs are stopping it rising rather then stopping it falling ..... net result is you tend to overcorrect less because any 'extra' inputs tend to result in the kite stopping or rising more rather then accelerating towards the ground..... everything calms down and you have time to relax and enjoy the view ;)

I now get really stressed when playing team flying if I have to hold an upright hover in light airs (think Bristol mega-fly) ... funny how things turn out !!

Give it a try by going all the way to max settings just to see how different it feels ... you can always change back ;)

#24 Sailor99

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 01:14 AM

I'm not sure it's a contradiction in physics Bart. When upside down the kite is more stable I am sure - all the weight is at the bottom so it makes sense that is is more stable. However if you are still at the 'think-adjust' stage of learning rather than the 'intuitive flying' stage then when upside down I think an additional time lag is built into the corrections. Additionally I believe there is actually a stage between the two obvious ones where some intuitive flying is happening and some think-adjust. Add the time lag and the mixture of the two types of flying and you get the following sort of feedback loop:

1) Kite wing visually on left dips

2) Intuitive flying applies a touch of brake with the right hand while think-adjust considers the matter!

3) Think-adjust then works out a little right hand brake is the solution so applies a touch

4) But the kite is already correcting!

5) So the right brake adjustment is too much

6) Return to 1 above but with left/right reversed

This would naturally lead to wobbles.

Additionally there is a distinct time lag between applying an adjustment and it actually taking place. The reason for this is that in a hover or reversing the airflow over the sail is much slower than when the kite is moving forwards. So you get a second feedback loop in action:

1) Kite wing visually on left dips

2) A right hand brake is applied

3) Nothing happens, so more is applied but at about the same time the original adjustment is starting to take effect!

4) Now you have too much right hand brake

5) Return to 1 above with left/right reversed

Again you get a wobble.

Overlay that in a hover or reverse you are effectively asking the kite to move in the direction of its unsupported leading edge, and you have the additional confusion of wing-tip flipping to contend with.

All very interesting I am sure! A combination of physics and loop theory from maths explains the conundrum.

But where does it lead you? As others have said you need to be in intuitive flying to overcome feedback loop 1. Similarly you need to be both in intuitive flying AND to have got the wait time programmed into your brain to overcome feedback loop 2. And you need to overlay the sensitivity of touch in reverse, which only comes with practice, to overcome the flipping of the wing-tips.

Sorry to say it is only through time in the air that you will master reverse and inverted hovers. While thinking the theory will help, you will not be able to think your way through this one. It is only by going beyond conscious thought, from think-adjust to intuitive flying, that you will succeed. And the proof of the pudding is that we have all been there (and some of us are still there!) and got past the hurdle by practicing, practicing and then practicing some more. It is exactly the same thing as reversing a car, or learning a tongue-twister as a child, or rubbing your head and stomach in the opposite direction, or folding your arms the wrong way.... or as bob said walking and chewing gum (although you would never catch me doing something as common as chewing gum!)

Once you have got past this one, you will find there are more hurdles in rev flying exactly the same. Probably clockwork will be the next one, followed by flying in circles in reverse.
Over - Jeremy

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#25 david ellison

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 04:26 AM

just read Zen in the Art of Archery and all this waffle will make sense ;)

#26 bartman

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 08:10 AM

Sailor. Thanks, that actually does help me to understand the dynamics of what is happening at the kite and nicely explains how overcontrol can cause it to rock. I don't know if I will ever get enough practice time in to train my mind to the level it needs to be though. Time will always be an issue for me. I'll be, hopefully, working on it again this weekend as the weather forecast looks okay. It is difficult for me to think of these things in the abstract. It goes against my nature of thinking through a problem. To quote a line for the Apollo 13 movie when the craft is out of control and Tom Hank's character asks, "why can't I think this through?" as he struggles with the controls. That is how it is for me too.

Bart

#27 Sailor99

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 08:12 AM

waffle!!!!!

(wandering off hurumphing) ;)
Over - Jeremy

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#28 Felix Mottram

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 10:39 AM

<snip>

"why can't I think this through?" as he struggles with the controls. That is how it is for me too.

Bart


The wobbles 'are' the learning. The reflex actions rely on the feedback loop between eyes and hands.

I would go so far as to say that flying a revolution smoothly in all orientations is a 'special case' of the wobbles!

Keep at it, it is worth it...

Felix

#29 Kitelife

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 11:53 AM

Well said Felix. :)

To me, the fine control is not so much a matter of controlling everything...

Rather, it's like floating, compensating or enhancing what the kite wants to do naturally.

John Barresi

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#30 Felix Mottram

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:21 PM

Well said Felix. :)

To me, the fine control is not so much a matter of controlling everything...

Rather, it's like floating, compensating or enhancing what the kite wants to do naturally.


So following on, if the kite is rocking from side to side, go with it and aim on facing left, then facing right and establishing a rhythm from one side to the other.

I do not like the notion of practice but will happily spend a lot of time 'doing the piano scales', especially the wing tip turns, for the sheer aesthetic pleasure of hanging onto the rotation point; nailing it in the sky.

Felix

#31 bartman

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 01:16 PM

I have watched the B-Series DVD a couple times again in the last week where John mentions the "steering wheel" and the minute control motions to keep the kite "floating". I find it very hard to pick up on that from watching and listening to the DVD though. That aside, I understand where you guys are going with this and if all goes according to plan I am going to have 8 hours between Saturday and Monday freed up to work on this so long as the weather will work with me as well!

I will get a stable hover from the beast before Christmas!

Now about the brake lines. I have the top lines to the end of the knots most times. I do have to move them in a bit now and again to deal with the ever changing wind. The bottom lines are also on the last knot so I am working with pretty good brake. I picked that up last year when I talked with iQuad members. I'm not 100% sure if I am noticing a difference from one knot to the next at this time. It may make more difference later.

Bart

#32 david ellison

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 01:41 PM

waffle!!!!!

(wandering off hurumphing) ;)


no need to hurumph old chap. I enjoyed your flow chart description on overcoming the wobbles, just didn't understand a word ;)

It's fine to intellectualise the observation-response cycle but/and at some point "one has to transcend technique so that the art becomes an "artless art" growing out of the Unconscious" (quoted from aforementioned book - thoroughly recommended)

Enjoy the fun of finding out Bartman. I remember Sailor saying recently that he wished he could start all over again with this Rev flying so that he could re-experience the fun of the early learning discoveries.

#33 Sailor99

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:56 PM

I did indeed say that, and I meant it. Learning is a life-joy we only learn to enjoy later in life.

Put another way, I envy you in your process Bart!
Over - Jeremy

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#34 Felix Mottram

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 03:14 PM

<snip>

I will get a stable hover from the beast before Christmas!

<snip>

Bart


Enjoy the journey Bart! As I said, it is worth it...

Best wishes

Felix

#35 bartman

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 06:33 PM

And of course, I envy those of you who have already figured this all out!

Bart

#36 Martyjuggles

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:29 PM

Not sure i can add much to what has already been said but it sounds like you have all the skills to nail this - especially if you can back the kite up to 20+ft. I find the higher the kite goes in reverse the harder is to keep stable.

Remember that the hover is *simply* a matter of balancing the kite between going up and coming down - if you can land it in a controlled way leading edge down you only need to add a bit more brake to make it hover.

I practised hovering from the ground up but also practised slow dive-stops - using lots of brake as it descends till it reaches a hover.

Try reversing up to 10ft and down to 5 ft then go back and forth between the two.

The hover is a balance and, like balancing a broom on your finger, requires micro adjustment and muscle memory to achieve. In my experience, when you learn any balancing act (unicycle, stilts, handstand) you learn by balancing for seconds at first and gradually manage it for longer and longer. When i was learning i would back the kite up from the ground a couple of feet hold it for a few seconds and then turn it over fly it and then land again leading edge down (*repeat* 10000 times!)

Finally, practice the hover as close to the ground as you can. It's much more natural closer to the ground and having a point of reference of the floor against the leading edge definitely helps.

You're nearly there!

Marty
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#37 Baloo

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 10:42 PM

The main difference between a new flier and a practiced flier is that the wobbles are of a different size.

JB 's wobbles are just a bit smaller, thats all.

So the smaller the wobble, the less you see it. The wobble is still there though.

Hope that makes sense??

Anyway, thats how I see it. with practice, all that happens is you learn to wobble less.

#38 Kitelife

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 11:01 PM

Another pearl, nice one Baloo, I agree. :)

John Barresi

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#39 bartman

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 08:04 AM

I don't believe I saw John "wobble" when he was here. Could have happened later that night depending on what he got into at the beer garden, but most of us would have missed that!

Bart

#40 Baloo

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 08:14 AM

You are looking in the wrong place to see JB's wobble.

Look at the kite, it looks still as a rock.

Look at his hands they are all over the place.

Just like me actually.

Except it is my hands that are still and the kite all over the place!!




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