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Race Rod Sets?


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#21 Aerochic

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:44 PM

kite flying is making me poor :ani_wallbash: but i love it


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#22 Dean750

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 08:41 PM

Dean, you want me to send some Race Rods to Lincoln City? :)



If it wasn't my wifes B-Day I'd say yep. But you know, responsibility is a heavy responsibility. The fact that I'm going to a kite festival to meet all ya all that are going on her birthday is nice enough that I'll probably wait on the race set for now and buy her something she wants. :innocent:

Ok, back on subject....
Why would a stronger, springyer :blushing: 3 or 4 wrap defeat the purpose? When I can fly with a 2 wrap set thats as springy as my 3 wraps I'll be happy. But when the wind is up, (and by up I mean 7 to 12mph) and I'm flying on the 3 wrap frame it just feels too spoongy. I worry about breaking something. So I end up doubling up the LE's to stiffin the LE back up. Guess I was just thinking about a single rod LE.
Guess I just need the vented versions. But thats a little while down the road. I did fly RescueRev's Vented B. I know I need the vented and he now wants a std. I guess I'm just used to the feel of my old Rev1 and not fully used to the feel of my B.

Dean

#23 Sailor99

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 11:21 PM

That's awfully low to change frames up. I would keep the RR in till 12 possibly more working my way up thru the levels of venting. I would then just jump to 4W. By the time you get to shoving 2 LEs or a SLE in I always think is is becoming survival time and the level of spring and recovery is a distant second in import. To be honest, once you have 4W in it seems to me there is so much wind and pull around that the sensitivty of the LE recovery time seems somewhat academic.
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#24 big bri

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 11:55 PM

Me to Sailor.Academic is the word.The object of RR or the best part of them is the sprung return.Havent ever watched anyone dive stop[with x wrap in] in a 25mph blow and then complain about the style marks.

:)

BRIAN...

#25 Dean750

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 10:42 AM

I'm not complaining. I was just curious if there was a thought about 3 or 4 wrap race sets and what everyone thought about the idea.
I do not have the Race set yet. I'm flying on my std 2 and 3 wrap rods that come with the std. B. I just have to get used to a bit more flex in the rods compaired to my old 4 wraps in my Rev 1.

Dean

PS As soon as I get some shorter indoor lines I'll let ya know what I think about the std. B with the 2 wrap Pro Only rods indoors.

#26 bartman

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 11:11 AM

So I have done some reading on these race rods since it was mentioned it will help out with choppy winds and I want to know if I understand the "how" part correctly. Seems likes they equal less weight, but stronger than a 3 wrap and when used with a vented rev they allow much lower wind than normally possible so one gets the advantage of a vented sail in lighter winds which will smooth things out if the wind gusts quite a bit. Is this correct? Assuming this is correct, then what happens with a wind that is strong enough for a vented and 2 wrap, but still a lot of gusts? How do the race rods benefit this situation anymore than the vented sail is already? How do they benefit a std sail?

Sorry if this is a rather awkward an stupid sounding question. I just need to understand the advantage before investing in them if I keep the kites. Probably wouldn't purchase until next spring unless I get a little extra money between now and then just to have a to hold them during the dead of winter!

Thanks.

Bart

#27 Sailor99

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 11:33 AM

So I have done some reading on these race rods since it was mentioned it will help out with choppy winds and I want to know if I understand the "how" part correctly. Seems likes they equal less weight, but stronger than a 3 wrap and when used with a vented rev they allow much lower wind than normally possible so one gets the advantage of a vented sail in lighter winds which will smooth things out if the wind gusts quite a bit. Is this correct? Assuming this is correct, then what happens with a wind that is strong enough for a vented and 2 wrap, but still a lot of gusts? How do the race rods benefit this situation anymore than the vented sail is already? How do they benefit a std sail?

Yep you are pretty much right. In addition the way they spring is more sensitive than a 3W AND they recover from bending quicker than either a 2W or 3W. So it is like adding extra-fast shocks to your car. Rather than the smooth but rather spongy suspension of a family car, you get the Grand Prix suspension of a roadster. The faster suspension makes any sail, V or standard, a bit better in the bumpy stuff IMHO
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#28 Jonesey

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 11:52 AM

So I have done some reading on these race rods since it was mentioned it will help out with choppy winds and I want to know if I understand the "how" part correctly. Seems likes they equal less weight, but stronger than a 3 wrap and when used with a vented rev they allow much lower wind than normally possible so one gets the advantage of a vented sail in lighter winds which will smooth things out if the wind gusts quite a bit. Is this correct? Assuming this is correct, then what happens with a wind that is strong enough for a vented and 2 wrap, but still a lot of gusts? How do the race rods benefit this situation anymore than the vented sail is already? How do they benefit a std sail?

Sorry if this is a rather awkward an stupid sounding question. I just need to understand the advantage before investing in them if I keep the kites. Probably wouldn't purchase until next spring unless I get a little extra money between now and then just to have a to hold them during the dead of winter!

Thanks.

Bart



IMHO its as per my earlier post ..... the race rods are, to use a scientific phrase, 'springier' so the effect is ... gust hits, rods bend, leech of sail opens (sail 'twists' dumping air), gust begins to pass, rods recover shape, leech closes,power restored .... in effect the race rods are a better match to the sail in a range of conditions as they work like automatic venting.....

Sorry about the few sailing terms creeping in but if you ever watch a windsurfer or a dingy with an un-stayed mast this is exactly what the sailmaker and mast maker are looking to achieve ..a perfect match between the rig and sail where the sails leech opens up just enough (twists) in the gusts but closes the right amount as the gust passes to return full power....

In practice what you feel is a kite that is more 'alive' ... probably the easiest way to demonstrate is by putting an SLE in an SUL ... you can still fly it in 5 knots but the kite feels dead and cumbersome... switch to a 2 wrap and the kite comes alive ... take it up range and the frame just over bends and you lose precision control and any power in the lulls ....

I guess the other thing to say is that the difference is more noticeable the better you get ... when I first got mine it was a case of 'ahh a lighter 3 wrap' ... as the summer passed and the 'more brake fundamentalists' took me under there wing ... the subtleties of 'driving' the kite became necessary and apparent (watch any iQuad video and see how they derive forward speed/power!) and the framing response more noticeable.

And I repeat .... IMHO ;)

#29 Jonesey

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 11:54 AM

Yep you are pretty much right. In addition the way they spring is more sensitive than a 3W AND they recover from bending quicker than either a 2W or 3W. So it is like adding extra-fast shocks to your car. Rather than the smooth but rather spongy suspension of a family car, you get the Grand Prix suspension of a roadster. The faster suspension makes any sail, V or standard, a bit better in the bumpy stuff IMHO


Cant believe you went with the car suspension analogy was sure you were going to do the sports bra one ;)

#30 bartman

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 02:59 PM

So, this will be like flying car shocks on a sports bra? You're right, far too many terms here.... :)

Bart

#31 Dean750

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 08:18 PM

Basically it's one rod set that for the most part takes the place of 2. Kinda why I possed the question to begin with. I'd rather stack 2 race sets or fly on rods that spring back to life quicker than the std.

Maybe Top Gear would have been more successful with they're amphibious vehicles if they would have had sports bra's? Maybe if Jonsey and Jeremy were there to advise. Just a thought.

Dean

#32 Stone in Shoe Bob

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 10:59 AM

Dean

Going back to your opening question, I think you may be looking at this the wrong way round, I'm sorry but I think you may be suggesting a solution that has no problem to solve.

We all abandoned our SLEs for the lighter, more flexible ” Ultra-Light and Rev Equipped rods, because being more flexible they help to absorb inertia and also being lighter, there is less inertia to absorb. Another consequence of this is that in any given wind the power to weight ratio of the kite is increased so we have to fly with more break to control the drive.

The snappy return of the Race Rods only really becomes an issue in lighter conditions when we need to have the sail as flat as possible for as long for as possible to make the most of the little wind we have.

In stronger wind that snappy return in a heavier rod could well work against us rather than with us.
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#33 Felix Mottram

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 11:48 AM

Dean

Going back to your opening question, I think you may be looking at this the wrong way round, I'm sorry but I think you may be suggesting a solution that has no problem to solve.

We all abandoned our SLEs for the lighter, more flexible Ultra-Light and Rev Equipped rods, because being more flexible they help to absorb inertia and also being lighter, there is less inertia to absorb. Another consequence of this is that in any given wind the power to weight ratio of the kite is increased so we have to fly with more break to control the drive.

The snappy return of the Race Rods only really becomes an issue in lighter conditions when we need to have the sail as flat as possible for as long for as possible to make the most of the little wind we have.

In stronger wind that snappy return in a heavier rod could well work against us rather than with us.


I am confused about the physics that is being suggested. The implication is that the race rod flexes similarly to an SUL but returns to straight 'un-flexed' more quickly. It is lighter than the Ultral-light as well. The flexing of the spars spill air as I understand it.

I would be interested to learn how this has been 'bench tested'.

I very much liked flying the 1.5B the other weekend in very low breeze on 120ft 90lb LPG but did not have the opportunity for comparison testing.

In a heavy wind I do not think that I want the kite to flex at all as it adds another variable but maybe that is because I have spent time on the smaller speed series kites and am comfortable with the more rigid format.

Felix

#34 Dean750

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 03:02 PM

In a heavy wind I do not think that I want the kite to flex at all as it adds another variable but maybe that is because I have spent time on the smaller speed series kites and am comfortable with the more rigid format.

Felix


Thats what I'm thinking Felix. I'm used to a Rev 1 with the 4 wrap Rev Equipped rods that don't flex much in the upper winds. It makes flying in lighter winds harder, but in upper winds I'm not wondering if theres going to be lag in my inputs due to rod flex.
The 2 and 3 wrap rods my B-Series came with flex quite a bit more than what I'm used to. I haven't tried a 4 wrap set yet so I don't know how much they flex. But comparing a 2 wrap Pro Only frame in the 1.5 and a B, the B flex's more than the 1.5. The B std. sail really holds onto the wind. So thats what got me wondering about the other Race set possibilities. A lighter rod in the 3 wrap thats as stiff and strong as a 4 wrap. 1/4" of course.
So far my post has shown that this is a prefrence in how much flex is too much.

Dean

#35 quaa714

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 04:57 PM

IMHO its as per my earlier post ..... the race rods are, to use a scientific phrase, 'springier' so the effect is ... gust hits, rods bend, leech of sail opens (sail 'twists' dumping air), gust begins to pass, rods recover shape, leech closes,power restored .... in effect the race rods are a better match to the sail in a range of conditions as they work like automatic venting.....

Sorry about the few sailing terms creeping in but if you ever watch a windsurfer or a dingy with an un-stayed mast this is exactly what the sailmaker and mast maker are looking to achieve ..a perfect match between the rig and sail where the sails leech opens up just enough (twists) in the gusts but closes the right amount as the gust passes to return full power....

In practice what you feel is a kite that is more 'alive' ... probably the easiest way to demonstrate is by putting an SLE in an SUL ... you can still fly it in 5 knots but the kite feels dead and cumbersome... switch to a 2 wrap and the kite comes alive ... take it up range and the frame just over bends and you lose precision control and any power in the lulls ....

I guess the other thing to say is that the difference is more noticeable the better you get ... when I first got mine it was a case of 'ahh a lighter 3 wrap' ... as the summer passed and the 'more brake fundamentalists' took me under there wing ... the subtleties of 'driving' the kite became necessary and apparent (watch any iQuad video and see how they derive forward speed/power!) and the framing response more noticeable.

And I repeat .... IMHO ;)


Very well explained Jonesey, sailing terms and all.
Right on about the "more brake fundamentalists" approach. Couldn't agree more

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#36 FortFlyer

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 06:48 PM

I think you guys are starting to get too scientific here, All thats required to fly a Rev is lots of practice and learning how to feel how the kite works.

Once you get that then all the rest falls into play, for example a Vented 1.5 can be flown with 4 wrap 1/4" rods in 5mph wind (if you know how the kite works) same goes for the SLE my sons fly low wind with sle's all the time they kinda like it.

Nothing out there will make you fly better except for 2 things, Time and Dedication to learning. Relax when flying mess around you'll be surprised what you can learn from putting on a set of headphones and just goofing around with a rev in time something will just pop and it will all come to you.

Sorry for being so coarse, I have the unfortunate ability to be straight to the point without much room for softening the edges but you'll get what I mean. :innocent:

fly fly fly fly fly fly and when your done fly some more. :sign_kitelife:

BTW race rods were designed for low wind they shine between 0-8 yes you can use them up to 15-18 but they loose their wonder after 10 imho, they have their place and where they belong they are truely amazing.

Thank You Ben for seeing through their development, now i have a boatload of useless 2 wraps to keep the SLE's company :kid_brooding:
Jim,
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Rev's are like a carbon framed out-of-body experience

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#37 Baloo

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 09:45 PM

No No NO Jim, I am afraid you have it all wrong.

The only way to get real good at flying Revs it to have LOADS of kit. As many Revs as you can possibly cram into your bag, or two or thre bags of course. All the possible combinations of rods, lines, handles, mp3 / 4 players, ground stakes, more Revs, more rods, more lines.

That is the only possible way to even get off the ground on any given Day.

Please please please dont let my Wife know all you REALY need is lots of practice. She will never let me buy another one.

#38 big bri

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 10:47 PM

No No NO Jim, I am afraid you have it all wrong.

The only way to get real good at flying Revs it to have LOADS of kit. As many Revs as you can possibly cram into your bag, or two or thre bags of course. All the possible combinations of rods, lines, handles, mp3 / 4 players, ground stakes, more Revs, more rods, more lines.

That is the only possible way to even get off the ground on any given Day.

Please please please dont let my Wife know all you REALY need is lots of practice. She will never let me buy another one.


Thanks Chris,Some Sence at last :kid_devlish: .

All the question and topics are worth merit as we know.Anything that gets ya thinking is good and this obviously does.Part of the flying has to be thinking how,why,when.The question certainly does that.That said,everyone wouldnt always like the same or be of the same opinion thats why your,
ALL WRONG AND IM CORRECT :lol: :lol: :lol:

BRIAN... :)

#39 FortFlyer

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 10:55 PM

Well the thing is if you fly as much as I say you would wear out your kites far too quickly SO the need for as much equipment as possible falls back on the needs to fly fly fly.

I mean really if you wore the same clothes and shoes everyday how long would they last ? multiple kites means minimal wear per kite therefore lasting longer and increasing your ability to fly as often as possible to achieve success in your hobby.

It's pretty basic and quite logical, Isn't it like what the wives do with shoe's and purses ? gotta have different kites to accessorize our clothing, weather most of all seasonal as well as moods and overall health.

C'mon I'm not even married and I know this stuff :kid_smartass:

I think i'm going to have to have a long talk with John and the iQuad guys for not covering this in the clinic, I think they are lacking on teaching one of the most beneficial things about flying quads (how to aquire more of the proper equipment) :devil:
Jim,
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Rev's are like a carbon framed out-of-body experience

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#40 big bri

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 11:17 PM

Well the thing is if you fly as much as I say you would wear out your kites far too quickly SO the need for as much equipment as possible falls back on the needs to fly fly fly.

I mean really if you wore the same clothes and shoes everyday how long would they last ? multiple kites means minimal wear per kite therefore lasting longer and increasing your ability to fly as often as possible to achieve success in your hobby.

It's pretty basic and quite logical, Isn't it like what the wives do with shoe's and purses ? gotta have different kites to accessorize our clothing, weather most of all seasonal as well as moods and overall health.

C'mon I'm not even married and I know this stuff :kid_smartass:

I think i'm going to have to have a long talk with John and the iQuad guys for not covering this in the clinic, I think they are lacking on teaching one of the most beneficial things about flying quads (how to aquire more of the proper equipment) :devil:


Can this be prescribed on the NHS[by a doctor].If not it should be.Its certainly an obvious,natural disorder and should be recognised as a medical condition.Its certainly a cure for depression,mood swings,lazyitus,and the dreaded Food Shopping.

PRESCRIPTION

Take two hours flying,twice a day and all day Saturday for next Century.If symptoms dont improve.Change to Race Rods[on topic] and fly with more rev partners.55 parthers usually does the trick.

BRIAN...

BRIAN...




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