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#1 bartman

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 05:35 AM

Hi all. Long time lurker here, first time poster.

I'm a little frustrated with the Rev kites or rather I'm frustrated with myself using Re kites.

I do not have a lot of free time to fly and most times I do get the chance I'm dealing with one extreme or the other wind speeds and almost always gusts. I also seldom get the chance to fly with any other Rev guys. There is one other with an EXP version and I'm told two other people in the city with some version of a Rev, but they must be worse at finding time to fly than me.

I'm sure most of you would agree that having other flyers at times helps keep the incentive going to tackle the learning curve.

What is just about driving me crazy is any kind of upside down hover. It is a combination of things that just throw me. I can hover facing right/left/up nicely (You'd hope so by this point) although transitioning between those orientations is sloppy and ugly. Turn it upside down and my brain doesn't get it. Just about each time I try I can guarantee I will drive it into the ground. It's like I want to stand on my head to keep the lines straight. I can manage reverse flight vertically and horizontal without losing control, but my flight path is a little shaky.

Further to this. If I practice with taking off inverted I can lift the kite, but not hover it and always it will rotate LE back up. I swear on its own accord, but I'm sure I am giving that input without realizing it. Time and time again. My own logic says the Rev should hover upside down easy with the bulk of the weight then on the bottom, but in practical terms that isn't the way it works.

When some members of iQuad were here in June I was advised to put my top lines on the furtherst knot out (I have a B-Series both standard and vented to try and more easily deal with the wind extremes here) for maximum break. This has helped a bit with getting the kite off the ground inverted, but not with any hover and the flipping over has had no change.

JohnB has told me I'm over controlling which is probably true although I do not feel my movements are that large.

Comparing the B-Series to the EXP I'd say the EXP is more forgiving with the control (Although I can't back up vertically through the window with it either and still get the flip back to forward flight) and the B-Series is more "twitchy" or less forgiving in the hands of an amateur!

So, with no one here locally any better at Rev flight than myself what do I need to do to break through this inverted hover barrier and move forward? If hovering is one of the key things to all other more interesting things besides just steering around the sky forwards then I need to get there before becoming so frustrated that I just give up and buy a single line to sit and look at. I'd be happy with even 1 small second of inverted hover before it flips around or I drive it into the ground. I know not to expect much more to begin with.

Thanks for any words of wisdom and/or some encouragement for us Rev flyers in the middle of no where.

Bart

#2 REVflyer

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 05:41 AM

practice with the kite inverted and the leading edge laying on the ground. Push your thumbs slightly at the kite and then walk backwards holding the kite no more than should high. do this practice session in low winds for maximum benefit!

when you are comfortable holding it shoulder high than go for double that height

keep practicing until you overcome the fear of having it inverted

if when you can't back it up inverted
then add more DOWN by shorting the bottom leaders or adding length to the top leaders

practice, practice, practice,... oh how I wish there was some pill you could take, but alas nothing except time will help

#3 Jonesey

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 06:06 AM

Just to be contrary ... standard advice is to start from ground .. lift off and try and maintain hover.. repeat until success.....BUT ...

Where I fly the ground wind is always a bit flukey so when I was trying to show my wife she had exactly the problem you are having so we did the opposite way ... climb to about 80% of the window normally, invert and during the 'fall' to the ground you have a lot more time to push you thumbs forward and find the 'sweet spot' and in cleaner breeze.... worked for her and its so much more comforting having more sky to play in.

The other thing to work on ... and it always the first 'trick' people like to learn.... is the dive stop and each time increase the amount of time you hover at the stop point however high that might be! ... kind of gets you into a rhythm of flip over, relax then thumbs forward to stop and/or hover.

I know it doesn't help at this stage but I think its true that once you get the hang of inverted hovers it becomes the natural attitude and is almost easier then flying upright ... weird really!

Oh and I fly alone mostly so I feel you pain.... my solution was to replace the people with a full kite bag of Rev's so I always have something different to play with ...

Keep banging away at it, I'm sure the Eureka moment is only minutes away ;)

#4 Jeepster

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 06:08 AM

I'm a little frustrated with the Rev kites or rather I'm frustrated with myself using Re kites.

What is just about driving me crazy is any kind of upside down hover.

JohnB has told me I'm over controlling which is probably true although I do not feel my movements are that large.

Thanks for any words of wisdom and/or some encouragement for us Rev flyers in the middle of no where.

Bart


Bart,

You have other REV flyers in the same town as you!!!! Wow, the closest REV kite to me is 50 miles away. I'm jealous!!

As a certified newbie to REV flying, please let me help you sort through the multitude of help you'll receive because of this posting ... while I"m writing this you will probably receive several answers. The great part is that ALL REV flyers genuinely want to help others ... there is no hording of secrets in the kite flying community. In fact, at the last IKE fun fly the wind was well above my kite's capability range. So, Mike Kory reached into his car and handed me a vented kite to fly that day. Then when they started to fly in formation, he handed me a set of 120 foot lines so I could participate. That's how much REV flyers want to help you succeed.

I fly in two worlds ... the RC plane world and now the kite world. I've been in the RC world for almost two decades, so am a reasonably accomplished pilot. Flying is essentially a reflex operation. Still have to concentrate on what's going on ... gravity is very unforgiving in the world of balsa ... but, basically I don't even think about what my hands are doing to achieve a flight pattern. I'm constantly trying to think up new mental tricks to help new RC flyers get through the brain freeze period where their thinking is a few seconds behind what the plane is currently doing. Some tricks work with some folks and not with others ... so, I simply keep changing the instruction until something clicks.

Like you, I'm still having to think about my hands, the wind, the ground, the next move, why it isn't doing what I thought I told it to, etc. So my advice is to listen especially for the "mental tricks" and the "how it should feel" advice. Sailor has told me that "there are no right answers in any of the rev stuff, only experimenting to find what works for you!"...he's right. So, write down all the mental tricks that are posted ... then go try each of them ... one will get through the fog. Also, write down all of the how it should feel ideas ... then go see if you can create that feeling ... again, one will surprise you. Ask why until you get to the root reason of why folks are doing something.

I'm also working on creating a reverse universe ... here's what I'm currently doing:

1) Start with the leading edge on the ground and rock each side up independently and hold it for awhile then bring both sides up together and try to hold it a foot or so off the ground

2) Go to various heights directly down wind - flip the kite upside down and try to hold it there

3) Don't move my hands as much as pivot my arms at the elbow to reduce the control input

4) Focus on rotating the arm downward on the side that is too high ... not the side that the lines are connected to. If the left side is too high, I lower the left arm slightly.

5) Practice something else.

6) Mix up all of the above so that I don't become bored, frustrated, or upset ... my attention span is not that long.

A new skill takes time to develop. If you keep practicing when your attention is shot, you'll just practice bad habits.

BTW, I love being a beginner in this sport, the learning curve is soooooo steep. And, I'm pretty sure kite flying is not supposed to be taken seriously. Read James Thurber's short story titled "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" ... it's on the Internet. Walter's my hero ... every day I fly, I follow in Walter's footsteps. Like Walter would, I'm constantly teaching John B. new moves. Every one of John's new videos has a move or two that he's learned from me.

Enjoy,
Tom

#5 Mike

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 06:54 AM

Like Walter would, I'm constantly teaching John B. new moves. Every one of John's new videos has a move or two that he's learned from me.


:blue-grin: very Walter Mitty! Ha!
Mike Kory:
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#6 AldenMiler

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 07:10 AM

My first advice is to get out of kiting, send your revs to me!

I found that I picked up the hover after being able to slide sideways while inverted. The movement was helping with my upside down position. Once I had that I was able to stop the slide and hover inverted. Now the damn kite won't fly upright.

-Alden
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#7 big bri

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 07:53 AM

My first advice is to get out of kiting, send your revs to me!

I found that I picked up the hover after being able to slide sideways while inverted. The movement was helping with my upside down position. Once I had that I was able to stop the slide and hover inverted. Now the damn kite won't fly upright.

-Alden


Top advice indeed the first bit,funny to Alden.Will save our new member a few $$$ to.
Welcome Bartman, to the dark side,

Its hard learning new stuff,some great advice on here for ya though bartman.

Best advice,PRACTICE,PRACTICE,PRACTICE,PRACTICE.


BRIAN...


#8 Sailor99

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 08:22 AM

Yep frustrating isn't it Bartman. We have all been there or are even still are there! Keep at it - it will come, I promise.
Over - Jeremy

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#9 Aerochic

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 09:06 AM

Bart, as a solo flyer... I feel your pain, I really do!!! The closest Revvers to me are 60 and 150 some miles away. Wah! It does get better tho. Keep at it and something will just click. My learning process has been slow but with every fly I pick up something new. I'm still having trouble with inverteds and hovers. Some days I'm just happy to have airtime, know what I mean?


I found that I picked up the hover after being able to slide sideways while inverted. The movement was helping with my upside down position. Once I had that I was able to stop the slide and hover inverted. Now the damn kite won't fly upright.


Alden this is exactly what I'm going through right now. Except maybe I've progressed to reversing up to the top of the window. :? Haven't figured out how to stop sliding yet. I'm totally learning this by mistake, but isn't that where we learn the most anyway?

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#10 FortFlyer

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 09:48 AM

I would suggest first and for most to check your equipment.

hook all 4 lines to something that will not move and use your stake on the other end to pull them taught make sure non of your lines are drooping away from the others, a little is OK but 1 line with a considerable droop will drive someone nuts while still learning.

Next when setting up make sure your bridles are straight and clear no twists, I know this sounds a bit finicky but getting those two things out of the way narrows things down alot.

Next thing do you have knots in your top and bottom lines for adjusting? many people never knew about that until they saw someone with them, these help in tuning the lines to the kite for more fwd and reverse effect on the controls.

Once the equipment is cleared then it just comes to practice practice practice and hopefully you will run into someone else that fly's eventually which will help the curve quite a bit.

Good Luck, hope this helps
Jim,
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#11 Choccy

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 10:00 AM

Haven't figured out how to stop sliding yet.

this is something I am dealing with, and have to really concentrate on where my arms are.
to stop it sliding you have to stop one arm pulling towards yourself more than the other.
keep your arms at the same distance from the kite and you'll get the perfect balance.

Pull your right arm/hand towards your body and the kite slides to the left while inverted and vice versa.
I hope that helps.

My biggest problem I am trying to address (since the clinic) is the inverted hover high in the window...
got to just keep at it :D

But sliding along the ground inverted is great fun (once you know how) ;)
1 of the 47.

#12 Watty

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 10:04 AM

Revs are a totally different animal in reverse, and while inverted. You must use small movements to get what you want. Giving too little control is better than too much, because if you give to little, you just go back to where you started, but if you give too much, one of the wings may flip over, then you'll have to do the walk of shame to get the wing wrap out.

When learning to fly in reverse, take baby steps. Just do a little bit at a time. I know it can be frustrating, but you'll get it.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#13 Kitelife

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 10:08 AM

Ya, common phrase at our clinics when teaching control (especially reverse or hover), less is more. ;)

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#14 awindofchange

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 10:33 AM

I wonder if you could tell us what lines you are using on your B-series? The reason I ask is that I had a customer that was having the exact same problem that you are having and was totally frustrated and ready to trash-can the whole Rev thing. He was also flying a B-series. I was fortunate enough to be able to leave work and meet him at the flying field to hopefully give him a helping hand.

When I got there the first thing I found is that he was using some garbage lines that he purchased from somewhere else not wanting to spend the money for a quality spectra lineset (home depot, hobby store, not sure) - not sure what type of line they were but they had so much stretch/bungee in them that the kite practically had a mind of its own. After trying to work with his kite and a little arguing about the lines, I finally just broke out my own lineset, replaced his lines and within 10 minutes and a couple adjustments he was hovering the kite beautifully. He was still not quite convinced that it was all in the lines so we switched back to his set. Needless to say his set went into the park garbage can and he immediately came to the shop and purchased a new quad set of spectra line.

Hovering the Rev upside down is one of the most difficult things to master. As you mentioned in your post you are in gusty/non-consistent winds which will make it even more difficult to learn. If your lines are all even and are of high quality spectra then the only other suggestion has already been given to you. Practice, practice, practice.

Not sure where you are located at all but you may want to look around for another area to fly that might be less wind challenging. I know this sounds a little silly but it really does make a huge difference. We have our local "Friday night fun fly" every Friday night out at a park that is located clear on the other side of the city and we have people all the time ask us why we don't just hold our fun fly at one of the parks that are close to our shop. The reason is that the wind sucks in the parks that are close to us. The surroundings cause huge wind shadows and turbulence that make it very difficult and frustrating to fly. So we travel about 8-10 miles away to the park where the wind is much more consistent and stable (plus we have a huge area to play in). You may want to look around at different areas of your city to see if another park will be better to fly at. Sometimes even moving a couple 100' left or right could have a huge impact on the wind on your kite, making it easier to learn and fly. Remember that even the smallest trees and fences will give you wind turbulence. Buildings, houses and other large obstacles will make it frustrating if not impossible to get a good flying time.

I hope this helps. Don't give up just yet, the Rev is one of the funnest kites to fly and it would be a shame if you didn't have the opportunity to enjoy it fully. You really are just a couple more sessions away from getting it under control. Good luck and keep us informed on your progress.

#15 Kitelife

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 10:43 AM

Well said Kent, thanks. ;)

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#16 Jeepster

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 10:58 AM

Bart,

One more thing for you to try.

I noticed when the kite stops at the end of a dive stop, the bottoms of vertical rods are pulled towards each other and the middle of the kite billows considerably. In that position, the kite is very stable for awhile. With that in mind, I stopped holding the sticks right in front of myself and moved them off to the side ... yep, really moved them to the side ... about a foot or so off to the side ... trust me, no one will ask you to fly in iQuad with the sticks in that position. What that did though is pull the lower end of the verticals inward and partially duplicated the dive stop shape. For me, the reverse hover position became easier to maintain. I was able to keep it upside down for several minutes at a time ... and when the wind was helpful the kite actually backed up the window. That's a first for me!!!

Once I had the kite stable(?), I moved the sticks towards each other ... yep, it became more difficult to keep the balance. I'm going to continue to practice with the sticks out to the side until I develop a good feel for what it takes to maintain a hover ... you can call it a hover right now if +/- 10 feet of drift counts as a hover ... I certainly don't own it yet. After getting the drift under control, I'll move the sticks towards their correct position.

Oh, and John's phrase "less is more", I'm pretty sure I remember teaching him that in my Walter Mitty persona. Look in his iPhone next time you see him, that's where he keeps all the things I've taught him. In fact, the next time you see him looking at his iPhone, ask him if Walter's stuff isn't in there!

Cheers,
Tom

#17 Felix Mottram

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 11:07 AM

Bart,

<snip>

BTW, I love being a beginner in this sport, the learning curve is soooooo steep.

<snip>

Enjoy,
Tom


But the real beauty of it is that the learning curve does not stop...

Sometimes it is hard to relay that in sensible language. <grins>

Felix

#18 Kitelife

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 11:10 AM

Man, never a truer word Felix...

I've been flying Revs pretty regularly for the last 17 years, nearly non-stop for the last 2, and I'm still learning more and more every time out.

John Barresi

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#19 Jim Foster

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 01:53 PM

Don't give up.

There is an inverted hover in your future.
With all the great help here on the forum, it will be yours shortly.
Fly together! Share the joy, Share the fun

#20 Aerochic

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 03:58 PM

this is something I am dealing with, and have to really concentrate on where my arms are.
to stop it sliding you have to stop one arm pulling towards yourself more than the other.
keep your arms at the same distance from the kite and you'll get the perfect balance.

Pull your right arm/hand towards your body and the kite slides to the left while inverted and vice versa.
I hope that helps.

My biggest problem I am trying to address (since the clinic) is the inverted hover high in the window...
got to just keep at it :D

But sliding along the ground inverted is great fun (once you know how) ;)



That does help! Thank You! :D I do need to be more mindful of what my arms are doing sometimes. I just figured out recently how to fly more relaxed with less and smaller movements.

I do enjoy the inverted slide tho. It looks so cool... until you lose it! Lol!

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