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Adjusting for reverse flight


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#21 Dean750

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 02:44 PM

Also Mr. Bazzer, most of my flying time has been on duallies. So my hand and body movments transfered from one to the other. Beings I prefer lighter wind with the dual liners I had to learn about relation of hands and back, forward side to side movement for either lift or speed control.

So when I'm flying my Rev 1 I'm constantly moving just about every part of my body. My parents have told me I look like I'm flying indoors no matter what or how I'm flying. I do it without even thinking about it. Hope I can figure out how to get a vid on here. Would be easier to give me tips by seeing what I'm doing as apposed to me trying to explain it.


Dean

Thank you for the help, keep it coming, someday I might actually be pretty ok on the Rev. :ani_notworthy:

#22 antman

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 06:37 PM

Dean.. if your haveing fun with that rev .. thats all its about!! :kid_content:
GOD PUT ME HERE. TO ENJOY THE WINDS

#23 Dean750

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 09:14 PM

I'm happy when I'm not frustrated. :kid_devlish:

#24 Jules

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 04:56 AM

Hi to everyone! I'm having problems with reversing the rev too but first I'd just like to give you a quick intro to myself. :blue-confused:

My name is Julian, I'm British (From Staines) but I live in Nancy, France. I love all sorts of stuff: remote control aircraft and helicopters, magic, playing the guitar, golf and all sorts of other stuff too. Obviously the only problem with all of this is that I never have enough time to do all these things regularly!! I'm new to Revolutions and kiting jargon in general so I apologise if my vocab is not up to spec.

Anyway, enough of the intro and back to the topic before I send you all to sleep.

I can make the Rev reverse horizontally but the same stalling sort of problem that Bob is having applies when I get it upside down. If the kite is high up it will come down fairly rapidly to around 3 to 5 metres (9 to 16 ft) from the ground. From there it becomes unstable and consistently wants to correct itself to the upright position. I also find that I can stall a tip pretty easily but that may be normal but because I don't have any other previous experience or contacts here I can't check that.

In reading this thread I see that nobody has directly mentioned the anchor points on the kite. My idea is that if you change the position of the bottom anchor point, nearer to/or further from, the end of the vertical spar, perhaps the reverse control is affected. I imagine this will affect the amount of flex that will be induced on the spar and probably the angle of attack and wonder if this isn't exactly what is needed.

So the acid test. How far is the knot for your bottom anchor point on your bridle from the loop in the Ferrule?

In measuring mine, I have put the end of the ruler on the nearest side of the knot to the end of the spar, pulled the bridle taught and measured to the nearest side of the ferrule where the bridle passes through it.

My left and right sides are not identical: Left is 27cm and the right 26.5 cm. That is approximately 10" 5/8 and 10" 1/2 respectively.

I suppose that there must be some kind of template in the revolution workshop to tie these in the same position but wonder if discrepancies can occur and cause this problem.

I hope this is pertinent and useful.

I look forward to hearing from you!!

Best regards,

Jules :kid_smartass:

#25 Jeepster

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:10 AM

I can make the Rev reverse horizontally but the same stalling sort of problem that Bob is having applies when I get it upside down.

In reading this thread I see that nobody has directly mentioned the anchor points on the kite.

My left and right sides are not identical: Left is 27cm and the right 26.5 cm. That is approximately 10" 5/8 and 10" 1/2 respectively.


Jules,

Welcome to the forum and the dark side.

Got to tell you that I've beaten you to all of the excuses for not being able to fly in reverse. Kite, winds, lines, handles, clouds, bad advice, Gods ... yep, in the final analysis, it was just me. Well, not me as much as the &%$#& learning curve. Read all of the threads on flying in reverse ... keep trying the different ideas presented in them and something WILL click. If I can fly in reverse, anyone can ... it sounds like I'm just a few weeks ahead of you on the learning curve!

As to your measurements with the bridle installed on the kite ... from the face of the end cap to the first knot is 10 1/2 inches on my kite. The distance from the first knot to the knot on the pigtail is an additional 2 1/2 inches. The 1/8 inch difference you've measured shouldn't cause any problems. There are so many places for errors in length to be introduced that a little here and a little there will cancel each other out ... the majority of the time.

So, the best advice you will find on the forum is "get out and practice" ... honest.

Cheers,
Tom

#26 LS Kite Stakes

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:22 AM

So, the best advice you will find on the forum is "get out and practice" ... honest.


There ya go, no truer words to say......
Reverse takes gradual and gentle imput on the handles. Too much or too quick will "flip a tip" everytime.


Welcome to the dark side.......... :sign_kitelife:
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#27 Jeepster

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:35 AM

By the way, just to let you know how frustrated I've been with learning to fly in reverse; I once had Papa Smurf from the iQuad team fly my kite, just to prove to me that it actually would fly in reverse. How pathetic is that?

Cheers,
Tom

#28 Sailor99

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:37 AM

And could he fly it in reverse OK? He seemed just about to be able to do it when he was in the UK, albeit with a few wobbles ;)
Over - Jeremy

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#29 Watty

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:39 AM

I wish I had copied and pasted the long explanation I typed in my PM reply to you. Well, I'm not typing it again.... I'll do a short version.

1. Check handles, and find what settings are right for you
2. Less is more
3. PRACTICE

there we go ;)

Hi to everyone! I'm having problems with reversing the rev too but first I'd just like to give you a quick intro to myself. :blue-confused:

My name is Julian, I'm British (From Staines) but I live in Nancy, France. I love all sorts of stuff: remote control aircraft and helicopters, magic, playing the guitar, golf and all sorts of other stuff too. Obviously the only problem with all of this is that I never have enough time to do all these things regularly!! I'm new to Revolutions and kiting jargon in general so I apologise if my vocab is not up to spec.

Anyway, enough of the intro and back to the topic before I send you all to sleep.

I can make the Rev reverse horizontally but the same stalling sort of problem that Bob is having applies when I get it upside down. If the kite is high up it will come down fairly rapidly to around 3 to 5 metres (9 to 16 ft) from the ground. From there it becomes unstable and consistently wants to correct itself to the upright position. I also find that I can stall a tip pretty easily but that may be normal but because I don't have any other previous experience or contacts here I can't check that.

In reading this thread I see that nobody has directly mentioned the anchor points on the kite. My idea is that if you change the position of the bottom anchor point, nearer to/or further from, the end of the vertical spar, perhaps the reverse control is affected. I imagine this will affect the amount of flex that will be induced on the spar and probably the angle of attack and wonder if this isn't exactly what is needed.

So the acid test. How far is the knot for your bottom anchor point on your bridle from the loop in the Ferrule?

In measuring mine, I have put the end of the ruler on the nearest side of the knot to the end of the spar, pulled the bridle taught and measured to the nearest side of the ferrule where the bridle passes through it.

My left and right sides are not identical: Left is 27cm and the right 26.5 cm. That is approximately 10" 5/8 and 10" 1/2 respectively.

I suppose that there must be some kind of template in the revolution workshop to tie these in the same position but wonder if discrepancies can occur and cause this problem.

I hope this is pertinent and useful.

I look forward to hearing from you!!

Best regards,

Jules :kid_smartass:


Spence "Watty" Watson

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#30 Jonesey

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:40 AM

I'm more concerned that my best man was called Julian and comes from Staines but I lost touch with him... Hmmm!!!

Bad news is Jeepster is right ..... we have all been where you are now!! ... the only thing to add is read the threads about handle leaders and using more break... Not sure what kite/handles you have but going to maximum break on my standard B-series handles has transformed the way I fly and in particular makes reverse flight natural an inverted hovers easier then upright!

oh and Welcome onboard!

#31 Sailor99

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:50 AM

I wish I had copied and pasted the long explanation I typed in my PM reply to you. Well, I'm not typing it again.... I'll do a short version.

1. Check handles, and find what settings are right for you
2. Less is more
3. PRACTICE

there we go ;)

Oooo! That's what I said replying to the PM too!

Jonesey - Was Julian Clarey really the best you could come up with as a best man?
Over - Jeremy

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#32 Jeepster

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 08:31 AM

And could he fly it in reverse OK? He seemed just about to be able to do it when he was in the UK, albeit with a few wobbles ;)


What do you mean "albeit with a few wobbles" ... do you mean that that's not right? He told me that's the way he's always done it. I assumed you needed to make the kite wobble to be a pro?

Maybe you guys were too quick with the PaPa Smurf nickname ... maybe Webble would be more appropriate. After all, Webbles wobble, but they don't fall down.

Cheers,
Tom

#33 Choccy

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 08:46 AM

After all, Webbles wobble, but they don't fall down.

Cheers,
Tom

Thanks for making my day Tom,
I'm so happy you know about the weebles :lol:
1 of the 47.

#34 Jeepster

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 09:01 AM

1. Check handles, and find what settings are right for you
;)


Watty,

This is not directed towards you, but towards all of us ...

Last week I had the opportunity to have a newbie fly my kite. Got him into the air okay, but then he couldn't keep the kite level. And, I couldn't quickly tell him what to do. It's obvious what to do when you think about it ... but, at least that skill has become such a non-thinking part of flying that I couldn't explain it right away. My exclamation to "keep it level" certainly didn't help ... it looped once and crashed. I had to stop and think about the mental tricks I used during my first day of flying and explain those to the student. Once I did that, he was able to keep it level.

The point I want to make is; all of us are at different stages in the flying experience and we can easily forget what to tell others about how we do certain things. Telling Julies to "Check handles, and find what settings are right for you" seems to be one of those "keep it level" type of directions.

On the other hand, here is one of Sailor's descriptions of "check the handles":

You need the bottom lines to be shorter for more brakes as is being suggested, or the top lines longer. Try this. Set the kite up as you normally do and do a normal leading edge up take off. Land again. If it was easy to take off, move the bottom lines in to the closest knot to the handles. Take off again. If it is still easy, move the top lines out one knot at a time taking off with each adjustment. Do this till you have to give a very positive tug on the kite to make it take off and maybe even have to take a step back. Once the kite is set up like this carry on trying to fly for the next 4 hours! You will find you have to tug on the kite to move it forward, but you may also find you have more control.

It's a good example of an explanation of how the handle set-up should feel ... at least it was very helpful to me a few months back.

Again Watty, my comments are directed at the Rev community and not just you.

Cheers,
Tom

#35 Watty

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 09:10 AM

Remember that my post here was a shortened version of what I had said in my PM to Jules. In the long version, I went through and explained about pigtails, knots, handles, and if you do this, this happens, and stuff like that, but I just didn't want to retype my entire 5 paragraph essay on tips to fly in reverse. ;)

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#36 Jeepster

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 09:15 AM

Remember that my post here was a shortened version of what I had said in my PM to Jules. In the long version, I went through and explained about pigtails, knots, handles, and if you do this, this happens, and stuff like that, but I just didn't want to retype my entire 5 paragraph essay on tips to fly in reverse. ;)


Ah, but Jules will not be the last new flyer to wonder about how to set up handles. A little cut and paste will go a long ways towards helping others who follow.

Since I live 50 miles away from the nearest Rev flyer, the forum was (and remains) my principle method of obtaining help with new problems I encounter. The more mental tricks we all share, the more happy flyers we'll have.

BTW, aren't you supposed to be in school today?

Cheers,
Tom

#37 Jeepster

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 09:18 AM

I'm so happy you know about the weebles :lol:


Yes, but it's so sad that I know about them, as a parent, from their first introduction and not the recent revival.


BTW, Row 3, Column 3 ... is that the kite I was supposed to have?

Cheers,
Tom

#38 Watty

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 09:26 AM

Yea... but I'm doing part-time running start at Spokane Community College, and that doesn't start for three weeks. I have 1 class at my high school, but isn't until the last period of the day, and today is an odd schedule, so the class starts at 1:45 and ends at like 2:00.

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#39 Jules

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 12:33 PM

Well I'm amazed at how much conversation that generated!

Thanks to everyone for their personal replies. It seems my Bridle position is normal and I'm pleased that 10 and a 1/2 inches is standard for a Rev pilot down below!!

I have seen the error of my ways and promise to practice and stop making excuses.

Here's Watty's comprehensive reply, although I would like to thank everyone who wrote to me:

There are three things that you could do to help with your problem.

1. Check your handles. What handles are you using? Did they come with a 1.5, B-Series, rev 1, etc? You can make adjustments by tying knots on the thick line attached to the handles, then pulling back the top or bottom lines. These thick lines are called pigtails. If you pull the bottom lines back farther, you will have more break, and if you pull the top lines farther back, you will have more thrust. Mess around with different adjustments to find what suits you.

2. Reverse is all about technique. Less is more. If you try and man-handle the kite in reverse, it will over-control (the wings will flip out and the kite will do some weird thing where you cant control it until it hits the ground). When reversing to to top of the wind window (The area of sky that you are able to fly in) it does become much difficult, especially in lighter winds. What I do to reverse to the top of the window is spin my hands so my thumbs are down, and pinkies are up, then lead the kite up.

3. The most important thing is practice. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE! Everything comes in time.

All of that was very helpful and I'm very grateful.

I'm using a 1.5 B series with all the 'pigtrails' and after trying 'Last knot on top and bottom', I moved the top line to the second knot which felt comfortable for me.
The wind was very light today so I flew with the two wrap spars. Although there was sometimes not really enough wind, I felt that a light breeze was better for learning: it gives you more time and sensitivity. What I also noticed was that when the kite's panoeuvres were executed cleanly the sail kept taught and this greatly helped in keeping it stable upside down. I still had problems keeping it inverted all the time, also form staying high but did manage to reverse it up on several occasions. I estimate the wind speed was around 5 mph today. The last time I flew it was around 20 mph which was a little too strong!! So, I'm looking forward to having a nice moderate wind to practise in.

Just in case this interests any of you I like this site to get a wind forecast.

http://www.windfinder.de/

Clicking on the map in the right places takes right ot where you need!! Very nice.


Cheers,

Jules




#40 Bob D

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 02:53 PM

I fly a Rev 1 Segwick and made some leaders. I've only had a chance to try it once and only while I had someone to help launch it because I forgot my ground stakes. The wind was very light and it seemed to help with adjusting the attachments to the knots on the leaders.

I liked Tom's advice for what you need to do to "keep it level". I'll keep that in mind.

Glad I'm not the only one who's challenged by Rev's. But then, that's part of the fun!
Bob




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