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1.5 SUL verses the 1.5 B Series


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#1 ian4c

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 10:38 AM

My new 1.5 SUL Aqua / Black arrived a few days ago. Not been out with it yet as the wind had been good in the last few days. So have been out in the rain. Brought the Rev B in to dry off and while both kites were standing together I decided to weigh them bearing in mind the sales pitch about the light weight properties of the SUL. The 1.5 B Series weighs in at 6.9oz and the 1.5 SUL weighs in at 5.9oz. Just 1 oz between them! I have a question. How much of an advantage in light wind, is the SUL, over the 1.5 B Series? I am wondering if I could have spent the money more wisely towards my next Rev - the Blast 2-4. Have I made a mistake?

Ian


#2 Kitelife

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 01:07 PM

I think you'll find the B-Series is pretty similar with regard to lift and flight...

It has a deeper sail area and more refined paneling layout.

iQuad uses standard B-Series sails and bridles with Race Spars in light winds, we've never had a need for an "SUL" version.

I think you'll find a good set of 50# line will make all the difference you need in light winds, regardless.

Be curious to hear thoughts from others though.

John Barresi

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#3 Fenman

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 01:34 PM

I could have spent the money more wisely towards my next Rev - the Blast 2-4. Have I made a mistake?

Ian



Cool ian so you going for the Blast 2-4,I got the blast instead of the UL, I think there is a lot more fun to be had,,,,

#4 Jonesey

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 01:39 PM

I think you'll find the B-Series is pretty similar with regard to lift and flight...

It has a deeper sail area and more refined paneling layout.

iQuad uses standard B-Series sails and bridles with Race Spars in light winds, we've never had a need for an "SUL" version.

I think you'll find a good set of 50# line will make all the difference you need in light winds, regardless.

Be curious to hear thoughts from others though.



Don't think anyone is going to disagree... as a relative newbie I've only tried a SUL once and have a B/race frame combo as a comparison..... bottom line is that for me its more about technique then that small a difference in weight etc .. I'm sure some of you pro's can discern a difference but surely us mere mortals need to spend a good few years on a B standard and Vented learning the skill sets before we could ever see any benefit .... of course if its an excuse to buy another kite ;)

Now as to you buying a 2~4 .. its no secret around here that I am a HUGE fan of that kite and I think it has taught me a completely different appreciation of light air techniques... keeping it moving, using gravity, floating, walking backwards etc all stuff that has helped me fly my B's better.... I fly alone mostly so you need variation in your bag to keep you motivated ...sorry but I just cant do 2 hours of drills on my own.. so a break and something completely different is what needed and thats my 'go to' kite of choice to mix it up in the light stuff (I have a few speed series kites for the same reason in a breeze).

#5 big bri

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 02:08 PM

Just sold my 2-4 blast.Not my thing at all.As for sul Vs B Series.

Ive just got in an hour ago after flying a custom sul with r/rodds, in ZERO WIND,ZEROOOO.You need the touch of a midwife.Thats the major thing[at first i found]..
Movement is the key,mainly reverse and then gain ground is quite a thing to master,but keep at it and you find it starts to come.Once i got into it.I actually found i could use some agression and was well into it when the boss shouted me in for my T[dinner].
Flown the B Series in that wind many times and i have to say,i prefare the feel.Perhaps its the fact that i usually or always seem to fly the B Series std these days.Race Rods are worth the money btw.

BRIAN...

#6 Kitelife

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 03:27 PM

Agreed, sail performance/efficiency is better with the B, which tends to more than make up up for any weight difference... Especially if it's tuned right, on the last top knot, or second to last.

With the added curve in the B's leading edge, the trailing edge actually bows back further, significantly increasing the lift and channeling the wind/drive more effectively.

But as Jonesey mentioned, a little technique will do WAY more for you than any difference of 3-4 ounces will.

For the record, I don't use the standard B-Series leaders anymore... I won't fly without at least an additional 1-2" of length on the top leaders... A couple weekends back all I had with me were B handles and I ended up pulling the brake lines back to the inside knot on the bottom and tied an extra knot in the sleeving for another 1/2" or so.

And bear in mind, my top lines are stretched out from all the flying I do, giving an additional 1-2" of brake on top of my handle settings.

Disclaimer... Without a little coaching, it feels like the kite doesn't want to fly... But my boys on iQuad will back me up, the kite flies WAY BETTER once you understand the principles involved. ;)

John Barresi

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#7 quaa714

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 05:04 PM

For the record, I don't use the standard B-Series leaders anymore... I won't fly without at least an additional 1-2" of length on the top leaders... A couple weekends back all I had with me were B handles and I ended up pulling the brake lines back to the inside knot on the bottom and tied an extra knot in the sleeving for another 1/2" or so.

Disclaimer... Without a little coaching, it feels like the kite doesn't want to fly... But my boys on iQuad will back me up, the kite flies WAY BETTER once you understand the principles involved. ;)


So I had previously tried doing exactly what you've discussed above, taking an old preknotted set of leaders off other handles and adding them to my B leaders. Very long however I only went out 1 or two more knots. And yes, as you suggest the kite feels like it doesnt want to fly, easily anyway.
So what tips or suggestions can you offer to better understand the different flight characteristics? Because as you say if its the technique and not the weight of the kite thaat separates an SUL from a B with race spars, then maybe I need to change hand position, etc.

"Cya in the Sand!....."

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"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" BD
"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain" BM
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#8 Kitelife

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 05:24 PM

The key with our settings is to remember... As you're holding the handles, full "pinkies out" (total thumbs-back angle) is forward, with all four lines taut, loading the sail fully.

Anytime you want to fly forward from a hover, give a sharp tug back on the top lines, just like a mini launch, which loads the sail and throws wind through the engine (like a siphon - it starts it moving).

Any input on the brakes is minimal, because there is more pressure in the sail and the brake lines are shorter.

Reverse flight is no longer a full input, you merely shift the tension into the bottom lines.

Much of it is retraining yourself on what the default handle position is.

If you can manage it mentally, take my word on this and spend an entire day on these settings in 5mph or more... Believe it will work, keep adjusting and don't let yourself expect it to fly a certain way, let it teach you. ;)

John Barresi

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#9 tonycarl

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 05:49 PM

I think my Sedgwick rev 1 with 2 wrap frame seems to hang better in very light wind than my sul. I like my sul because it's snappier than the rev 1 and a little less work than the std b w/race rods although I'm getting better at milking the b.

#10 Kitelife

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 06:07 PM

Another factor to flying the B on our settings in light wind... Anytime the kite stalls, turn it so the leading edge points down slightly, and use gravity to "start your motor" again, building inertia and speed to fly upwards again, maintaining solid tension as you initiate the forward drive. ;)

John Barresi

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#11 Sailor99

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 09:29 PM

The key with our settings is to remember... As you're holding the handles, full "pinkies out" (total thumbs-back angle) is forward, with all four lines taut, loading the sail fully.

Anytime you want to fly forward from a hover, give a sharp tug back on the top lines, just like a mini launch, which loads the sail and throws wind through the engine (like a siphon - it starts it moving).

Any input on the brakes is minimal, because there is more pressure in the sail and the brake lines are shorter.

Reverse flight is no longer a full input, you merely shift the tension into the bottom lines.

Much of it is retraining yourself on what the default handle position is.

If you can manage it mentally, take my word on this and spend an entire day on these settings in 5mph or more... Believe it will work, keep adjusting and don't let yourself expect it to fly a certain way, let it teach you. ;)

Your timing is excellent - Choccy and I were discussing this on Sunday but I struggled to put it into words. We did try setting her kite up this way as, I am sure she won't mind me saying, she was getting dragged all over the place. The near total lack of drive was too much neural input given we were doing team stuff at the time (which is already a mind F). So we went back off total neutral settings by one knot on the top. I think it helped a little still, and we are getting close to totally neutral handles, but I think we can push a little further.......

I find in a real blow I tend to start moving back to tuning in some forward drive again. Odd that, as it is exactly the opposite of what you would expect. I think it is because I am a reasonably big chap so pull is not a problem, and when it is pumping up 20MPH I expect the kite to pull so my brain shorts out if it isn't!
Over - Jeremy

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#12 Kitelife

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 09:30 PM

Aye, that's odd... The higher the wind, the more brake I put in.

The more forward I use, the more pull there is.

John Barresi

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#13 Sailor99

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 09:38 PM

The more forward I use, the more pull there is.

To me, this is one of the biggest advantages of what you are describing. If you can cope with the increased effort invoved in an upright launch (I always try and land inverted so not an issue normally, except in team routines that start right way up) and that to move forward you have got to expend some calories, then the benefit you get is not having the kite "Load up" unexpetedly (which is when it darts off to someplace unexpectedly!) and not getting your arms pulled off. As I understand it, what your technique is all about is that you have power when you want it, but ONLY when you want it. And this means more control, more precision, less surprises.

As you can see, as someone who is working up to it, I am a great fan of this technique!
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#14 Kitelife

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 10:26 PM

Well described Jeremy. ;)

John Barresi

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#15 big bri

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 10:53 PM

Driving with the brakes on...

BRIAN...

#16 Kitelife

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 10:57 PM

Ian, I'm also curious... When weighing your B-Series, did it have a 2 wrap or Race frame in?

The Race rods are reportedly 1 gram lighter than 2 wraps, per spar.

John Barresi

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#17 david ellison

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 11:58 PM

the touch of a midwife

classic BIG BRI :lol: - creates a great image and sums up light wind flying superbly


Another variation on letting out the top lines more, is to straighten out some of the bend in the handles. I find this keeps the brake lines very close to coming in to play - a slight tap with the thumbs and they're ON.

Does anyone else use this trick for getting forward drive close to the ground where (inland) the wind strength drops off? - hook your forefinger over the top leader to effectively shorten it at the same time as you rock your hands back to engage first gear. Bit of a fiddle but it certainly helps with speed control.

Back on topic Ian - I've also bought a SUL sail recently to replace an old one that I'd mid-vented (seen recently in toilet training action). I know there is little weight difference but it all helps and in those marginal conditions it's great to have a both light and a standard kite set up ready to go as the wind changes

#18 Kitelife

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 12:00 AM

For my own style, I very rarely play my fingers on the top lines.

I find that I can generally elicit more out of the kite with proper tensioning and loading technique.

John Barresi

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#19 Sailor99

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 12:15 AM

Will have a go with the finger thing - something new to try, again [sigh]

Back on topic Ian

Father Barresi off topic? Well, whatever next ;);)
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#20 Kitelife

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 12:29 AM

Topic was apparently covered, and has digressed into indirectly relevant subject matter.

No foul. ;)

John Barresi

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