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A moral dilemma


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#121 hyzakite

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:26 AM

And my friends wonder why I maintain 20 acres of lawn. I fly at our local beaches once the beach clears out, until then there is always happy hour. The place I fly at is called Sunset Bay with mostly rental properties by the week, where people leave their chairs and seadoos and toys by the water all day. As there is very little beach areas from Buffalo to the Pennsylvania stateline I can understand why people don't bring 80 foot triangular beach blankets for one person to sit on. However, If someone did have an 80 foot beach blanket on the beach or several people had 80 foot blankets on the beach, how would other beach goers feel about stepping on, walking across or getting sand on those 80 foot blankets?

#122 Reef Runner

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 07:33 AM

The ground passes are meant to show the control of the kite; as well as the space that is needed for it to fly in.
Not - 1. To make timid; fill with fear. Nor - 2. To coerce or inhibit by or as if by threats


I've got to agree with Laura, here ! Yes, I freely admit to using the ground pass, when necessary, but only, as Laura mentioned, to demonstrate that I'm in control of the kite, and to show the "Obliviots", the space that is needed to fly the kite. I am surely, in no way, trying to intimidate anyone, and have never been one, to intentionally escalate, a potentially tense situation. My kites, and the desire to fly my kites, won't make me change my basic demeanor, which is to try and get along, and share the beaches with others, who are there for the very same reason, I am.

During the peak season (June, July, Aug) here on the NC beaches, my beach flying is normally done, well prior to 9:00 - 9:30 am, when it's just me and the occasional beach walker (and the seagulls). As the crowds begin to migrate down toward the beach, I am always quick to land, and wind up my lines - no problem. Then again, in the evenings, as the crowds retreat to the showers & restaurant lines, I'm once again free to set up, for that wonderful sunset flight on the beach. As for the rest of the day (late morning, mid-day & early afternoon), I'm lucky to have the sand dunes, within a very short walking distance, so if the heat isn't too oppressive, I'm up on those sand dunes, where there is ample room for everyone to fly. Bottom-line, I really don't have a problem, finding a place to fly, when I'm at the coast, so I really have no reason to intimidate anyone.

However, with reference to my earlier post [#109], when there was NO one on the beach, but me and this one other couple, it was obvious to me that the intimidation was aimed directly at me. This guy, for some reason (?), was just determined to come over and get the "old dude with the kite", to move along. The first problem was, he scored a "zero" in social skills. Had he made his concerns known to me, with some semblance of decency, and just a bit less demanding, I may have considered moving back a bit, but just so he could make a show, and impress his "sweetie" - I don't think so. After all, I hadn't made any intimidating passes at these people, in any manner, and besides, I had been flying, right there, in that spot, long before they even arrived, plus I had taken precautions, not to infringe on their area, in any way. It wasn't peak season ! The entire beach was wide open, for miles ! So, right or wrong, I felt quite justified in standing my ground. I just didn't feel that I should be bullied, just because this one "obliviot", decided to show off for girl friend.Posted Image

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#123 Reef Runner

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 07:47 AM

However, If someone did have an 80 foot beach blanket on the beach or several people had 80 foot blankets on the beach, how would other beach goers feel about stepping on, walking across or getting sand on those 80 foot blankets?

I would have to say, this all depends on if the beach is crowded, as during peak season, or wide open, as in off season. The 80 foot beach blanket, or the frequently encountered volley ball game, is no different than the kite. There's a time that this is appropriate, and there's a time that it is not. Only prudent judgment, can decide - yea or nay ! (IMHO)

Personally, I don't have a problem walking a few feet out of my way, to avoid encroaching on someone else's space.........
It's no big deal ! Posted Image

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#124 --Pete

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 09:08 AM

I've composed and erased several replies over the past few hours.

in·tim·i·date (Posted Imagen-tPosted ImagemPosted ImagePosted Image-dPosted ImagetPosted Image) tr.v. in·tim·i·dat·ed, in·tim·i·dat·ing, in·tim·i·dates 1. To make timid; fill with fear.2. To coerce or inhibit by or as if by threats.




I think we have a fundamental difference in how we interpret the definition of "intimidate" which was posted here recently. I believe that every action mentioned (with the sole exception of walking away without a word) meets this definition of intimidation.

Intimidation does not imply malice. Fear doesn't (only) mean mortal terror. If I was the most kind-hearted person in the world but looked like something out of the depths of hell, my mere presence would intimidate.

If we can't agree about what the words we are using mean (and I don't insist that we must), I cannot continue.
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#125 Jeepster

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 09:30 AM

... I believe that every action mentioned (with the sole exception of walking away without a word) meets this definition of intimidation. ...


Influence might be a more accurate word, since intimidate does have a slightly negative connotation. By showing the new arrivals how much control we have over the kite and how much room we are utilizing, we are trying to influence them into staying outside fo "our space."

I'll take exception with one point you've made. When I was about 12 years old I got in trouble for talking back to an adult neighbor who felt I'd done something wrong. My dad told me that in those situations I needed to simply walk away ... and that, he would back me up if I'd do that. Found that simply walking away from that neighbor was an extremely effective way of sending her into orbit. Imagine a 12 year old who has discovered the POWER!!! It took walking away a few times, but she stopped "picking" on me. I'd say that was intimidation on my part ... with all the negative connotations ... I loved it.

Cheers,
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#126 dave sainsbury

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 05:18 PM

Had a border collie chase the kite for 30 minutes last night.
Was scared to set it down as he leapt off the sand everytime it came close.
The owner seemed to appreciate me exercising his dog while he watched the sunset

Finally he came over for what I thought would be a confrontation

"Could you fly the kite over the water?
"The water slows him down enough so I can catch him and I need to get home.

Have not had any complaints yet, our beach can fill up with walkers around sunset.
I tend just to set the kite down when I see a group approaching.
Then launch as they pass by.
Or stand at the waters edge and fly out to sea, wind permitting.

Think I will try 30' lines

Certainly, grumpy people is the absolute antithesis of the mental state I am looking for

Dave

#127 Love2fly

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 07:03 PM

And my friends wonder why I maintain 20 acres of lawn. I fly at our local beaches once the beach clears out, until then there is always happy hour. The place I fly at is called Sunset Bay with mostly rental properties by the week, where people leave their chairs and seadoos and toys by the water all day. As there is very little beach areas from Buffalo to the Pennsylvania stateline I can understand why people don't bring 80 foot triangular beach blankets for one person to sit on. However, If someone did have an 80 foot beach blanket on the beach or several people had 80 foot blankets on the beach, how would other beach goers feel about stepping on, walking across or getting sand on those 80 foot blankets?



Hi hyazakite....

If you're referring to the 80' lines, I waited until the end of the day, until the beach was amply cleared. It was the same routine/place for quite some time. If I wasn't flying quad (as I had only been flying quad a few months a that point) I would be flying SLK's. I didn't or wouldn't take over the beach or an 80' triangular space. The locals knew me and were always happy to see me come back. RESPECTING one's space whether at a beach or anywhere, goes both ways. It's common courtesy that allows folks to get along in these situations. Sadly, not everyone has learned about that. Some people are just grumpy and always seem to be on edge and ready to start something; without respect or regard for anyone but themselves.


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#128 Reef Runner

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 08:41 AM

I think we have a fundamental difference in how we interpret the definition of "intimidate" which was posted here recently.

Intimidation does not imply malice. Fear doesn't (only) mean mortal terror.

If we can't agree about what the words we are using mean (and I don't insist that we must), I cannot continue.


Hey Pete, I hear what you are saying, and I don't think that anyone here, is really disagreeing with you, or trying to be argumentative. After all, as you mentioned earlier, the word "intimidate", was clearly defined, in a previous post, and the words are pretty self explanatory. You may very well be correct in your assumption, that some of us have different interpretations, as to what those words mean, and as to whether or not we, as individuals, fall into that category. But regardless, I don't think that the point of this discussion, is to debate the actual meaning of the word "intimidate", nor am I'm not sure that it is even relevant. Personally, I don't believe that it makes any difference, what word we use, from a discussion standpoint, or whether we agree as to the meaning of that word. I believe that it's our real intentions, that are important, here.

IMHO, I think that the real issue should be, whether or not we as "kite flyers", are aware, that our actions directed towards others, may indeed be interpreted as intimidation, whether we mean for them to be, or not. I personally do not feel that I am trying to intimidate anyone, when I simply make a few low passes across the sand, out in front of an oncoming group of completely unconcerned, unsuspecting people, especially when they are approaching me, with an arm full of chairs, coolers, and umbrellas. It's not always easy, while you are in the process of flying, to simply put everything on hold, and run up to discuss the matter face to face. I only want to make them aware, that I am here, and that "this" is the flight path of my kite, NOT that I am trying to take over the beach. So many people are just unaware of what you are doing, or that you are even there, and many of those that do notice you, simply think that you can just turn around, and fly the kite over on the other side. They just don't know any different. I have had many occasions, where I have simply motioned to someone in a group, to come over, as I continued to fly, just so they could see that I was indeed, controlling the kite, and making clear, a way for them to approach. Then I would politely explain to them, what I was doing, and ask if they would mind setting up, a just little this way, or a little that way. Rarely has this ever resulted in conflict, and more times than not, it has ended up sparking an interest in the kite. After a while, it usually grabs someone's attention, and then their curiosity takes over. Again, most people that approach a kite, just don't know where to go, to get out of the way, so they just keep coming straight on, till someone, or some thing, indicates differently. And besides, as I mentioned in an earlier post, as the beach begins to fill, I am more than happy to wrap things up, anyway. I do agree with Jeepster though, that the word "intimidate", does have, somewhat of a negative "feel", to it, but either way, it is what it is. I'm not even sure who brought the word "intimidate", into the discussion, however, I don't think that any of us, are intentionally intimidating others, with malice, or with the intent of creating fear, but only to educate and inform.

Also, I surely hope that I, nor anyone else here, has in any way offended you, Pete, as I feel certain that none of us want you to stop participating.
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

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It balances out the times, when the minefield of life explodes.

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#129 Love2fly

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 09:50 AM

Hey Pete, I hear what you are saying, and I don't think that anyone here, is really disagreeing with you, or trying to be argumentative. After all, as you mentioned earlier, the word "intimidate", was clearly defined, in a previous post, and the words are pretty self explanatory. You may very well be correct in your assumption, that some of us have different interpretations, as to what those words mean, and as to whether or not we, as individuals, fall into that category. But regardless, I don't think that the point of this discussion, is to debate the actual meaning of the word "intimidate", nor am I'm not sure that it is even relevant. Personally, I don't believe that it makes any difference, what word we use, from a discussion standpoint, or whether we agree as to the meaning of that word. I believe that it's our real intentions, that are important, here. IMHO, I think that the real issue should be, whether or not we as "kite flyers", are aware, that our actions directed towards others, may indeed be interpreted as intimidation, whether we mean for them to be, or not. I personally do not feel that I am trying to intimidate anyone, when I simply make a few low passes across the sand, out in front of an oncoming group of completely unconcerned, unsuspecting people, especially when they are approaching me, with an arm full of chairs, coolers, and umbrellas. It's not always easy, while you are in the process of flying, to simply put everything on hold, and run up to discuss the matter face to face. I only want to make them aware, that I am here, and that "this" is the flight path of my kite, NOT that I am trying to take over the beach. So many people are just unaware of what you are doing, or that you are even there, and many of those that do notice you, simply think that you can just turn around, and fly the kite over on the other side. They just don't know any different. I have had many occasions, where I have simply motioned to someone in a group, to come over, as I continued to fly, just so they could see that I was indeed, controlling the kite, and making clear, a way for them to approach. Then I would politely explain to them, what I was doing, and ask if they would mind setting up, a just little this way, or a little that way. Rarely has this ever resulted in conflict, and more times than not, it has ended up sparking an interest in the kite. After a while, it usually grabs someone's attention, and then their curiosity takes over. Again, most people that approach a kite, just don't know where to go, to get out of the way, so they just keep coming straight on, till someone, or some thing, indicates differently. And besides, as I mentioned in an earlier post, as the beach begins to fill, I am more than happy to wrap things up, anyway. I do agree with Jeepster though, that the word "intimidate", does have, somewhat of a negative "feel", to it, but either way, it is what it is. I'm not even sure who brought the word "intimidate", into the discussion, however, I don't think that any of us, are intentionally intimidating others, with malice, or with the intent of creating fear, but only to educate and inform. Also, I surely hope that I, nor anyone else here, has in any way offended you, Pete, as I feel certain that none of us want you to stop participating. Posted Image


Hi reef runner-

Exactly my point... thank you :)
Laura
 
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**** REVS: Fly it, you'll like it!
***** L.S.P. ... It's worth the trip!
 
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#130 stroke survivor

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 09:51 AM

AMEN!!!:)

wayne from portland
You have 2 choices - live on or die!! I ain't the dying type!!!  Also known as "portland flyer" on some forums!

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#131 --Pete

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 01:25 PM

...
Also, I surely hope that I, nor anyone else here, has in any way offended you, Pete, as I feel certain that none of us want you to stop participating. Posted Image



I wasn't offended; I scaled back my participation to avoid offending anyone else. I tend to get heated, and a chat forum is no place to do that.

I value the friends I've made here too much to risk anything like that.

People (especially me) can't see the body/facial language of the other participants (especially the lurkers) and decide exactly how intense things are getting, which lets them (me) modify their activity. Without that visual feedback things can get nasty. This, BTW, is the purpose of smileys/emoticons: to make up for the lack of visual cues in conversations and arguments. Sort of, "When you call me a skunk, you'd better be smiling, pardner," and that's how you deliver the smile.

I'll probably jump back in at some point, but I will have to watch myself very closely. (And probably erase a LOT of posts before posting them.)


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#132 --Pete

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 01:49 PM

For my first post (by the new me) I'd like to clarify and repeat that I didn't intend to say that anyone who described making ground passes was acting with any kind of malice. Posted Image

I do believe it was intimidation, in the sense that I understand the definition. Intending to influence others by a demonstration of intent or ability: "This is where my kite flies when I stand here. You should not camp out under it." I base this belief on the great deal of reading about human and animal behavior that I've done in the past 60-odd years.

If any of you have time, please read the Wikipedia article on how people interpret text concerning subjects about which they have strong feelings:

http://en.wikipedia....le_media_effect

People strongly tend to see only the parts of the text that they disagree with. I know I can't see the parts of a new article that I agree with, but always see the parts that annoy me. I have learned to re-read any article that strongly offends me, deliberately looking for the parts that I agree with. Generally I find that the article was not so badly biased after all.

Then re-read some of my posts (and posts of others) that you thought were horribly wrong-headed. Maybe they weren't so bad after all.
--Pete
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#133 stroke survivor

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 02:25 PM

Glad to have you "back"!!!:)

wayne from portland
You have 2 choices - live on or die!! I ain't the dying type!!!  Also known as "portland flyer" on some forums!

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#134 Reef Runner

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 02:45 PM

Glad to have you "back"!!!Posted Image


Hey, I second that !!! Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

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#135 Love2fly

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 03:23 PM

Hi guys....

I "third" that.


Hi Pete...

You are 100% correct that without seeing one's facial expressions, it can be difficult to get a true "read" of what a person's points/perspective truly is.

It seems to me that the folks on this forum are "happy go lucky", "laid back" people, sharing a common passion. We want to do what's best for promoting our sport; that goes for here on the forum and out "there" when flying.

Bringing it back to the topic...
Certainly, being approachable on the field is a huge thing in demonstrating that we are not elitists or above anyone; individually or as a group. Even if the passersby don't show an interest in what we're doing, a friendly smile will go along way in showing that we're friendly and have no ill intentions- whatsoever. With that being said, when I questioned my right to fly there, I needed to make sure that I was not stepping on anyone's toes or overstepping my bounds; which I wasn't. :blue_wink:
Laura
 
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***** L.S.P. ... It's worth the trip!
 
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#136 hyzakite

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 03:29 PM

Hi Laura

I have to admit, the lady that called the cops on you sure gets around, I'm sure a lot of us will see her or her family again this year.



#137 Reef Runner

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 04:07 PM

It seems to me that the folks on this forum are "happy go lucky", "laid back" people, sharing a common passion. We want to do what's best for promoting our sport; that goes for here on the forum and out "there" when flying.


Here, here !!!! Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

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It balances out the times, when the minefield of life explodes.

J Buffett - "A Pirate Looks at Fifty"


#138 Love2fly

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 08:32 PM

Hi Laura

I have to admit, the lady that called the cops on you sure gets around, I'm sure a lot of us will see her or her family again this year.




Hello hyzakite-

Let's hope not. It's a nuisance that just wastes our time!!! Posted Image
Laura
 
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**** REVS: Fly it, you'll like it!
***** L.S.P. ... It's worth the trip!
 
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#139 --Pete

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 08:32 PM

Glad to be back (but I was only gone for 28 hours). (And read every new post within an hour or two.)
--Pete
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#140 Reef Runner

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 06:22 AM

Glad to be back (but I was only gone for 28 hours). (And read every new post within an hour or two.)


Way too long Pete..........way too long ! Posted Image

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It's important to have as much fun as possible while we're here.
It balances out the times, when the minefield of life explodes.

J Buffett - "A Pirate Looks at Fifty"





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