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A moral dilemma


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#101 Love2fly

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:34 PM

I realize that we are getting really "Off Topic", but .................

Actually, I was referring to hitting a sea gull with a stunt kite (dual-ie), oh, and I second the rats with wings, part !!

Not only have I had several encounters with sea gulls, I actually hit an Osprey, one time. He wasn't very happy with my kite, or with me, and I was really a little concerned, if he was going to retaliate, or not. I was just cruising a Prism Fanatic, out over the surf line, and well, he was too, and you know what they say about two objects occupying the same space at the same time. Well it happened, but all was well. No claw marks, and I think the Osprey was just fine, because he went along his merry way, but he still looked a bit angry..........Posted Image


Hi Reef Runner....
I've snagged seagulls a few times. Once in T.I., I had one go through the lines, a wing got caught in the line, it did a 360 around the "armpit" of the wing where the ling caught it, and then he was able to fly out of it!! It was quick and hopefully, painless for the "Flying Rat"!!!

One other time, I was flying locally and there were a lot of geese where I was. I did a dive stop over them and the first time, nothing happened. The second time, I made some noise from the sail. Well, it definitely spooked them! I had expected them to "V" off on both sides of the kite. Nope. Most of them came straight through the lines and then overhead. Between the turbulence of their wings creating wind and their wings hitting the lines, that was the BUMPIEST moment I've ever experienced!!! lol

The Osprey incident would have got me on edge, too. They are NASTY predators, so you never know!!
Laura
 
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#102 Reef Runner

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 04:02 PM

Hi Laura, You know, I told Pete, we ought to start a brand new topic..........."Close encounters of the feathered kind" Posted Image

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#103 --Pete

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 04:21 PM

Hi Laura, You know, I told Pete, we ought to start a brand new topic..........."Close encounters of the feathered kind" Posted Image


Unless, of course, we've just told all the good ones. It might be a short topic.



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#104 manny

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 05:38 PM

I hit a seagull once too. It really was an accident. But after that I sometimes aimed... Never hit one again. BTW why fly seagulls out to sea? Well if they would stay in the bay they would be called bagels...
Hope I can still post after that on:innocent:

#105 HedgeWarden

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 05:50 PM

Concerning the birds: there are some very rare species that have evolved to nest on beaches. Huge expanses of sand where there isn't enough food for most of the year to support a population of ground predators. It was never a problem until suddenly there arose a species that was easily addicted to excess ultraviolet exposure. Later they (some of them) became addicted to playing with things made of sticks and fabric flying on the ends of strings. Now there is competition for room on these windy, useless expanses of sand. Fortunately, this new species evolved with enough sense to decide where to fly. Unfortunately, the birds did not evolve the ability to choose to nest elsewhere. They also are not smart enough to distinguish between kites and avian predators. I guess it's up to the folks with the smarts to let the birds nest where nature has stuck them, and choose to fly in similar places that don't happen to attract the birds. (Yeah, I know it's preachy; that doesn't make it untrue.)


On the Left Coast, another issue is that introduced European Beach Grass has taken over a lot of the Plover nesting areas, crowding them out of the upper dunes into less protected areas. And, as you said, every time they see a "diving raptor or seagull", they run away from their nestling babies until they think it is safe to return - probably the same instinct as the large plover - the Killdeer - who try to lure the predators away from their babies.
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#106 HedgeWarden

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 06:13 PM

Unless, of course, we've just told all the good ones. It might be a short topic.


Twice I've had juvenile seagulls pause to investigate my kite. I could fly toward them, and they would retreat. I retreated, and they would advance. (The maneuverability of a quad is necessary to experience this.) Obviously as curious as a cat. And they were curious also. :kid_smartass:

Have not been able to interact with adults (full white-gray plumage), only juveniles (mottled gray). And when a flock flies toward your kite, you can expect a few line hits. Of the several incidents I've experienced, none have entangled a bird or pulled seriously on the lines.

I have, with a dual-line kite, at times flown aggressively toward a seagull that was flying close to my flying area. Careful not to hit them, I wanted to warn them about the "danger" of flying too close. Some seem to appreciate and give wider berth - some seem oblivious. Guess gulls can be as clueless as some people.

Note: I would not hit a bird on purpose, or fly such that my lack of control would endanger a bird. But, occasionally, they are almost as stupid as the human beach monkeys that decide to set their beach chairs exactly where they just saw your stunt kite fly a low pass at 50 mph 2 minutes ago. Of course, they always have a child with a small plastic shovel and bucket with them.

Well, they are more often ignorant than stupid. The question is how to educate them, and how to educate us kite fliers to share the beach, and most importantly how to educate the politicians how multi-use public resources can be controlled for the widest benefit. Luckily, on the Left coast, Kite flying is generally considered a positive activity. Although, a few years back, Santa Barbara CA had to consider complaints about the noise and apparent danger of sport kites along their beautiful harbor park - I don't know how that was settled.
-Howard
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#107 --Pete

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 08:41 PM

The question is how to educate them...


Have you considered standing a styrofoam mannequin in your flying area and ripping its head off with a high-speed ground pass as they begin to set up? (You might have to weaken it strategically to get the best effect. If you can get the head to fly 50-60' in their direction you might get their attention.) <kidding>
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#108 Reef Runner

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 08:15 AM

Have you considered standing a styrofoam mannequin in your flying area and ripping its head off with a high-speed ground pass as they begin to set up? (You might have to weaken it strategically to get the best effect. If you can get the head to fly 50-60' in their direction you might get their attention.) <kidding>



Hadn't thought of that Pete, but when I see them coming (and we all know who "they" are), and especially when I've got a dual-ie, I immediately begin doing low ground passes, from one side of the window to the other, so as to kinda define my flight area. That usually gets some attention, and likewise, it usually gets the message across. It's still unbelievable, though, how many people will walk right into the flight path, almost immediately after the kite passes, and begin to set up chairs, umbrellas, etc. Posted Image

Now to get back on subject.........................

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#109 Reef Runner

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 08:18 AM

Well, everyone's got a story – here's mine !

One morning, I was out on the beach, all alone, with one of my Prism dual-ies, just minding my own business. The wind was clipping around 15 – 18 mph, straight up the beach, and I was just cruising back and forth across the open sand, from surf line to the high tide mark. There were a couple of chairs, sitting up the beach, a little ways from my flight path, which had obviously been put out earlier, to claim a spot for someone. I don't know why, because it wasn't peak season, and the beach was practically deserted, most all of the day, but anyway, someone had obviously marked their territory. So, trying to be respectful of these senseless claims takers, I had moved back down the beach a ways, to give ample room, should they show up. Usually, when I set up, and get my lines stretched out, I'll mark myself a heavy line in the sand, just as a visual indicator, of where to stand (or stand behind), to assure that I am clear on the other end of my lines (the kite). So I had carefully done this, and I had left a good 35 feet+, of clear space air space, between my kite's path, and the claims takers chairs. No sweat, just stay behind my line, should the mystery couple reappear, and all should be well. Maybe not ! Sure enough, about an hour or so later, here comes a young couple (early 20's - no offense) over the dunes, with towels, cooler & umbrella in hand. Seemed friendly enough, as I got a nod from the guy, as he was putting up the umbrella, while his companion was situating her chair to sun.


Finally they settled down, and I figured all was well, as I continued to simply cruise back and forth across the beach, standing well behind my line, and bothering no one, I thought. Eventually, I see the guy get up and walk down to the surf line, and head my way. I assumed he was going to take a walk up the beach, and I immediately changed altitude with the kite, and shifted over to the opposite side of the wind window, to allow him ample room to pass by, without concern. Then, as this guy gets up beside me, he turns and heads up towards where I am standing. I thought he was simply coming up to speak, or ask a question about the kite, or something. WRONG ! And this is where things began going "South".

Now get this! The 'Junior G-Man', I'm sure in a gesture, to impress his "bathing beauty", has come over to demand, that I move on down the beach, and find another place to fly my kite, because it is coming by and blocking off the sun, and "it's freaking out his girl friend", who is really afraid of kites. She's worried that it's might get away from me, and come over there, and injure one of them, or something. At this point, after looking up the beach and pointing (no one in sight), and then looking down the beach and pointing (no one in sight), I then pointed to my line in the sand, and explained to him, that I was flying on fixed lines, that were exactly 85' long, and that as long as I stayed well behind my line in the sand, that there was no way in the world, that my kite could come within 40 feet of them, plus, I had been here flying, for over an hour, before they decided to come set up, right under me. Needless to say, the conversation continued in it's Southerly direction, as I stood my ground, and made it quite clear to this jerk, that had the beach been crowded, I wouldn't be flying – period, but with things being wide open, as they were, I had no intentions of moving anywhere, and if the sun bathing was getting blocked from "girl friend", I was sorry, and if she was freaking out, I was sorry about that too, but I was staying put. So now this guy turns and walks directly back through my wind window, as if to dare me to hit him, because I'm still flying the kite, and have never missed a beat, during the entire conversation. He then has a few words with "missy", who jumps up, and begins grabbing up their belongings, as they eventually hoofed it on up the beach a ways and settled back down. I really hate that the wind was blowing in their direction, so I couldn't hear them discussing what a pretty kite I had. I love compliments, as I feel certain, that's what they were talking about, as they relocated.
Whatever !!! Posted Image

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#110 stroke survivor

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:03 PM

That's ridiculous!!!:kid_brooding: Here's another - You're at a known kite festival and still people walk through your lines or get under your flying area, like you're in total control or they don't care about their safety!!! OBLIVIOTS!! Ever have a grandpa turn his grandson loose with a SLK, running through lines, etc, and get mad if you tell him to stop before he breaks something??? Almost thought we'd come to blows, when I asked him to watch for kites down and parked!! "Why aren't you flying?" was his question, never thought we could take a break or something!!! Now, I try to find an area away from the crowds, if I can, close enough to hear the festivals goings on, but far enough away to be relatively safe!

wayne from portland
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#111 --Pete

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:50 PM

Added ammo for personal, quiet, internal use only: IDIOT-TARDS!

(Just ran across this portmanteau/neologism for Idiot-Retards somewhere else today. I kinda liked it.)

OBLIVIOTS is also very good - with slightly different connotations.
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#112 Reef Runner

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:55 PM

Added ammo for personal, quiet, internal use only: IDIOT-TARDS!

(Just ran across this portmanteau/neologism for Idiot-Retards somewhere else today. I kinda liked it.)

OBLIVIOTS is also very good - with slightly different connotations.


Pete, have you been in the wine cellar again ?? Posted Image

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nick, from North Carolina
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It's important to have as much fun as possible while we're here.
It balances out the times, when the minefield of life explodes.

J Buffett - "A Pirate Looks at Fifty"


#113 Love2fly

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 04:19 PM

Pete, have you been in the wine cellar again ?? Posted Image



Posted Image







Laura
 
*** Any day flying is a good day; have a great one! 
**** REVS: Fly it, you'll like it!
***** L.S.P. ... It's worth the trip!
 
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#114 Reef Runner

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 05:00 PM

Posted Image

Well, I was just trying to get us back on subject !!! Posted Image

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nick, from North Carolina
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It's important to have as much fun as possible while we're here.
It balances out the times, when the minefield of life explodes.

J Buffett - "A Pirate Looks at Fifty"


#115 HedgeWarden

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 05:44 PM

I think we have to remember, 85% (carefully researched number) of kite festival attendees are not kite wise. I know the first several times I attended, I was amazed at the dozens of kite lines stretched across what I thought was a parking area on the beach.

It is best to regard any lines outside the designated flight fields as open game for tripping.

Within the designated flight fields, we just need to hold our temper and politely explain to the wanderers. A few of whom turn out to be real saps, but most are very polite if we are.

That applies only to festivals with defined flight areas. On open public beaches ... Posted Image

I've been setting up short traffic cones. Two to mark my practice landing area for my Rev, and one or two more to mark the nominal path of the line when on the ground. So this lady with two kids starts walking toward my lines. I politely ask her to please walk around the traffic cone to avoid my lines. She says "What lines, I don't see any lines. And continues to walk toward my lines." I raise them and explain they are hard to see, and that is why I marked out the area with traffic cones. She looks at me strange, and continues to walk toward the lines. Yep, there are obliviots. :kid_cussing:
-Howard
No, this is my first childhood!

#116 Love2fly

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:23 AM

My team was at a festival where there were several hundred (I don't know... could be a thousand) spectators around our roped off field; who were all eager to fly their small SLK's..... very eager! They would continually wander onto the field and have to be politely asked to stay behind the lines. Off on the other end of the field, here comes this man, onto the field. Not only did he walk through our kites and I mean literally walk through a parked Rev and flip it over in his stride, he continued to walk toward us and never broke his stride, never apologized, never acknowledged what he did!!!!Posted Image
Laura
 
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#117 --Pete

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 06:02 AM

If it wasn't for the weight and drag (and stretch), we could all fly our kites on "Crime Scene" tape instead of LPE. Folks might notice that!


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Posted 26 February 2011 - 06:28 AM

I have a problem at our local flying spot

I got there the other week, and there was 2 guys flying foils down the bottom of the field, so I stayed at the top
I was flying for a while when they made their way up the field, and one, crashed his foil down quite close to me
At first I didn't take any heed

A few weeks later I got there and there was no one else on the field
I set up down the bottom, and after a while the same 2 guys turned up and set up at the bottom near me
Next thing I know, the same guy as before crashes his foil down close to me

Winding me up a bit, and want to give him verbal, but I bite my lip

The impression i'm getting is these guys think the field is purely for power kites, and they are attempting to scare me off the said field

So it appears that there are people within the hobby are inconsiderate as well as the general numpties

#119 --Pete

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 07:24 AM

...

The impression i'm getting is these guys think the field is purely for power kites, and they are attempting to scare me off the said field

So it appears that there are people within the hobby are inconsiderate as well as the general numpties

I've seen this as well.
I've seen stunt flyers at festivals deliberately cross lines with SLKers to "encourage" them to leave the (public) field for stunters alone. This is usually pretty funny, as the SLKers are often on cotton, nylon, or plain Dacron line which cuts their fancy no-stretch lines like butter. There is nothing like seeing some bully's $200 kite disappear into the distance to bring a bit of joy to a festival.


Several people in this topic have mentioned making ground passes to "stake out" an area of the flying field when people approach. It's intimidation, maybe mild or well-intentioned, but still a form of intimidation. Just as looking at the kite flyer and deliberately walking into the scope of his lines is intimidation. A surprisingly large amount of human interaction is some form of intimidation. It's just how humans are.

You make the ground pass ("I was here first!") and then the other person decides whether to back down or see whether he can intimidate you. If he has family with him, the motivation for escalating is very powerful. If you have family with you (or other witnesses whose opinion you care about, like fellow flyers), then you may be impelled to "stand your ground" where you might move over a bit if you were alone. This may not be a pretty way to look at human interaction, but it explains a lot.




--Pete
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#120 Love2fly

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 12:31 AM

Several people in this topic have mentioned making ground passes to "stake out" an area of the flying field when people approach. It's intimidation, maybe mild or well-intentioned, but still a form of intimidation. Just as looking at the kite flyer and deliberately walking into the scope of his lines is intimidation. A surprisingly large amount of human interaction is some form of intimidation. It's just how humans are.

You make the ground pass ("I was here first!") and then the other person decides whether to back down or see whether he can intimidate you. If he has family with him, the motivation for escalating is very powerful. If you have family with you (or other witnesses whose opinion you care about, like fellow flyers), then you may be impelled to "stand your ground" where you might move over a bit if you were alone. This may not be a pretty way to look at human interaction, but it explains a lot.






Hi Pete...
I have to disagree with your assessment that the ground passes are being done for intimidation. First of all, it would have to be part of our thought process to be intimidating which would or should reflect in our demeanor while doing so. The only reason I do that is to show people that are uneducated about the kite, what it is capable of and what I am doing with it. The ground passes, flying up, down or reverse, etc. are meant to show the control of the kite; as well as the space that is needed for it to fly in.

in·tim·i·dateplay_w2("I0202200") (Posted Imagen-tPosted ImagemPosted ImagePosted Image-dPosted ImagetPosted Image) tr.v. in·tim·i·dat·ed, in·tim·i·dat·ing, in·tim·i·dates 1. To make timid; fill with fear.2. To coerce or inhibit by or as if by threats.
This couldn't be further from the truth.

Certainly, there are always the exceptions, but I can assure you that those advising the ground passes and so on, are NOT in that group!
Laura
 
*** Any day flying is a good day; have a great one! 
**** REVS: Fly it, you'll like it!
***** L.S.P. ... It's worth the trip!
 
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