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Cartwheels across the window?


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#121 bartman

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 05:50 PM

Errr, I got the last sentence understood! Posted Image

Bart

#122 bartman

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 08:20 AM

I must be the last one to have these sorted out!

Another go at them yesterday. I went about it a different way. I had better luck with the proper look when I was closer to the ground so I tried to keep all attempts in the first 10 feet. That was a challenge in itself. It was std sail/2-wraps if that at the bottom and xtra-vent at the top. I had to do more than my usual fiddling with rod combinations and brake settings to fly all of the window safely.

That aside, I think I need the reference points in the background to learn with. When it was clear blue sky I had no idea what was looking right from wrong.

I then decided that the maximum width of window I would use would be 30 feet directly downwind.

Then the toughest one of all was to tell myself that I would not think about inputs only think, or rather acknowledge, if the kite was to tumble left or right in that 30 feet. In other words, I would need to trust my hands to sort out the rotation and the slide combo between point A and B and back to A. I'm pretty sure I've deciphered the physics of it all but running through each step fast enough just wasn't working.

Poor wind at that level not-withstanding it actually worked and I was able to make repeat trips back and forth without needing to reset everything and start again.

So this would be classed as the first thing I have done more on muscle memory initially than thinking it out beforehand to a great degree. It also means I still do not have a total grasp on why it worked I just know it looked decent enough that other pilots would recognize it as a cartwheel and I could repeat it.

The trick now is to see if I can do it again or if I just experienced a fluke! If I can repeat it then I can work on smoothing it out and expanding the travel. I'll need to learn to live without the full understanding of it.... for me that is the toughest part! Posted Image

Bart

#123 stroke survivor

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 08:27 AM

Hey Bart:


So the question is - Is it better to be able to do them, not knowing how?
Or knowing how, but still not being able to do them? Posted Image

Posted Image



wayne from portland
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#124 makatakam

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 10:11 AM

A better question might be: Once you're doing them, do you care how you did it?
Mark

Posted Image

"...it's a fair wind blowin' warm, out of the south over my shoulder, guess I'll set a course and go."
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#125 Madquad

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 10:18 AM

And the best answer: Try not to think when doing a cartwheel. Succeeding ends when the thinking starts. Posted Image

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#126 bartman

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 10:34 AM

Hey Bart:


So the question is - Is it better to be able to do them, not knowing how?
Or knowing how, but still not being able to do them? Posted Image

Posted Image




I'd much rather know it and not understand it than understand it and not be able to do it. My mind likes to know it regardless so it creates some turmoil there if it never figures it out! Makes it harder to teach someone too without totally understanding the dynamics.

Bart

#127 makatakam

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 10:44 AM

I'd much rather know it and not understand it than understand it and not be able to do it. My mind likes to know it regardless so it creates some turmoil there if it never figures it out! Makes it harder to teach someone too without totally understanding the dynamics.

Bart


"Too many mind.........no mind." From the movie The Last Samurai .Teach it the same way you learned it!
Mark

Posted Image

"...it's a fair wind blowin' warm, out of the south over my shoulder, guess I'll set a course and go."
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#128 katrina

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 11:17 AM

Use the force, Bart. Your hands already know what to do. Shut your brain up and let them do it. Once you've got your cartwheels down cold, then you can take a look at your hands and analyze what they're doing.

Consider this: Do you know exactly what your hands do when you do a 360, pinning the center? Now imagine doing a 360, but pinning the wingtip instead of the center. What do your hands do differently to make that happen? Take your hands off the keyboard and try it. Yeah, I have no idea either. But I can do them both and so can you. You didn't learn those by thinking about your hands, you learned by watching the kite and honing your movements till the kite did what you wanted it to do.

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#129 bartman

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 01:30 PM

"Too much mind.........no mind." From the movie The Last Samurai .Teach it the same way you learned it!


So I'd say, in this case, "I dunno, I just looked at the houses in the background for a reference point and thought 'go right' and it did it." Somehow doesn't seem too useful. Posted Image


Use the force, Bart. Your hands already know what to do. Shut your brain up and let them do it. Once you've got your cartwheels down cold, then you can take a look at your hands and analyze what they're doing.

Consider this: Do you know exactly what your hands do when you do a 360, pinning the center? Now imagine doing a 360, but pinning the wingtip instead of the center. What do your hands do differently to make that happen? Take your hands off the keyboard and try it. Yeah, I have no idea either. But I can do them both and so can you. You didn't learn those by thinking about your hands, you learned by watching the kite and honing your movements till the kite did what you wanted it to do.


Yeah, "the force." Almost what it seems like. But in the case of both a tip spin and a centre spin I knew exactly what dynamics had to come out of my hands to sort them out. With the centre spin I remember how I would pull it out of the air because my hands were going opposite in the pedalling motion than they should have been, but my mind knew the right way and I had to think about it to program it properly. In the case of the cartwheel my brain understands the dynamic of sorts, but can't translate it to the hands fast enough. So my hands know the basic, my brain does not. Sounds backwards and if it wasn't for the fact that I "get" the whole muscle memory thing I'm sure my head would explode getting through this. Posted Image

All that said, as far as I'm concerned it's just moving into a different way of learning all the Rev can do and my brain will need to get over it. It's now a case of having most, if not all, the building blocks in place and just putting them together in exciting ways. The thinking portion may be becoming less important to me as the doing portion and I'm one step closer to understanding why it is not always easy for the real experienced pilots to verbalize what they are doing for the benefit of someone else.

As I give the occassional lesson here to the new guy I see more and more that I have to pause and think about the inputs so he can do them. Even the "simple" things aren't so simple to verbalize anymore.

Or, it may have all been a fluke! Posted Image

Bart

#130 katrina

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 01:46 PM

So I'd say, in this case, "I dunno, I just looked at the houses in the background for a reference point and thought 'go right' and it did it." Somehow doesn't seem too useful. Posted Image


Yes! :kid_frustrated: Yes it is! You did rotations, which you already know how to do, and moved it right. You didn't think about each little move.

But in the case of both a tip spin and a centre spin I knew exactly what dynamics had to come out of my hands to sort them out.


ah yes. Of course you did. For you are Bart. :)

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#131 bartman

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 02:00 PM

Yes, I did it, but if I had to explain it to someone else I'd be left with little in the way of useful instructions not kowning how exactly I did it. "Use the houses as a reference and just move it" won't help many people to learn it. That's what I mean by changing focus on how we are learning these things now. Moving past the thinking part completely and into the imitating phase of doing what you see based on the building blocks you've learned previous. Seems like it would be a much faster way of learning.

Just call me Sheldon. Everyone else does... for some reason... Posted Image

Bart

#132 Felix Mottram

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 02:54 PM

<snip>

The thinking portion may be becoming less important to me as the doing portion and I'm one step closer to understanding why it is not always easy for the real experienced pilots to verbalize what they are doing for the benefit of someone else.

<snip>

Bart


When Alan Nagao led us in Berck Plage into a leading edge down 'side slide' in 1990 or there abouts he said 'just do it'. We did...

You know about this Bart, as I recall!

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#133 SkyPuppet

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 02:57 PM

Yes, I did it, but if I had to explain it to someone else I'd be left with little in the way of useful instructions not kowning how exactly I did it. "Use the houses as a reference and just move it" won't help many people to learn it. That's what I mean by changing focus on how we are learning these things now. Moving past the thinking part completely and into the imitating phase of doing what you see based on the building blocks you've learned previous. Seems like it would be a much faster way of learning.

Just call me Sheldon. Everyone else does... for some reason... Posted Image

Bart



I understand how thinking can get in the way of "doing". But it's hard not to dissect your performance at the end of the day, or when things aren't going as planned.

There are sooooo many variables at play during the cartwheel/traveling bicycle/tumble..... Lots of feedback from the Rev for your brain to quickly sort out.... It can be quite difficult to notice exactly which part of the move is going wrong, and when.
Having a good grasp on the flying characteristics of the Rev, or the "building blocks", is definitely beneficial to furthering your progress with this trick and any other. Once again, with this particular move, I'd say over half of the 19 total building blocks (from the B-Series dvd) are at play! Thinking it out won't hold you back, but remember what Einstein used to say: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." If the way you're trying to perform the move isn't working, you must try something different in how you execute the move.

Persistence is all I can recommend now. Never say die, practice 10 minutes straight each time you're out flying. 5 minutes to the right, 5 to the left. In all the different conditions you can. Try adjusting your handle leaders 1 knot forward or back of your usual position, then try it again for 5 minutes. Try different things at different times during the move. Just make sure you give any changes you make a fair shot. Go with them for 5 minutes at a time before switching to a different setting or way of doing.

Hey Sheldon!! (J/K. Turtle reference?) There's no need to hurry up and learn. Don't get too frustrated with your progress Posted Image

Good luck Bart!


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#134 HedgeWarden

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 04:35 PM

I'm still working on cartwheels - no surprise there!

After glibly suggesting to Bart that one key was control over reverse, left to right and right to left, the next time out I checked my skills there.

Reverse left-to-right: very smooth, relatively fast and quite straight. Oh yeah - I'm really smokin'. :kid_content: :kid_content:
Reverse right-to-left: what the heck, I just crashed - then I took off for the moon. Surprised how different our skills can be in opposite orientations. :kid_cussing:

Anyway, I was reversing right-to-left (my preferred way) when I decided to stop and do a slow bicycle rotation (now to be called a pinwheel, by historic precedence, I believe). Except I didn't achieve the stop before the rotation - wow, a somewhat ragged but definite cartwheel.

Of course that was not repeatable. But it was great fun to see a cartwheel at the end of my lines. :P :P

JB gave me a tip. As my Medicare eligible brain interpreted and remembered it: Do a 1/4 rotation while moving in desired direction; stop; then start moving and doing another 1/4 rotation. Four 1/4 rotations make a full, and the horizontal movement makes a cartwheel in stop motion. Repeat, reducing the stop time ... until ...

Well, my memory may have mangled part of the instructions, but that is the idea that I plan to use.

Fair winds
(Oh, we just lost the top of a tree in the wind, partially blocking the road in front of our property.) :angry:
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#135 bartman

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:00 PM

I probably gathered "how-tos" from about five people at WSIKF and then a number of people on the forums. No one idea was the magic pill for me. I think I'm using a combination of about half right now.

After work today I darted out for an hour with the specific purpose of working on the cartwheel most of the time.

Yesterday was no fluke! I was able to duplicate what I did again today. I had a better breeze at the ground so it was a lot easier as well.

None were perfect by any means but some were a lot better than others. I only had to "reset" a few times out of dozens of back and forth cartwheels.

I introduced another idea into the mix and started adding exaggerated inputs. I found this helped me when I had trouble getting the inverted slide to actually slide so I think it can help me again here. \

When I did exaggerate the moves I was better able to sort out what was slide and what was rotation and the cartwheel looked smoother. So my brain may win yet and I'll sort out the physics through all of this.

I can now say the cartwheel is within my grasp. I'm not ready to debut it yet. I've had a few spectators the last couple of days though and they might be wondering what I'm trying to accomplish going back and forth over and over!

Bart

#136 goestoeleven

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 08:38 PM

Yeah, keep at it Bartman!

I can't sort it out with any regularity . . . probably because I'm not putting in enough flying time. For some reason, I seem to be able to "moonwalk" the kite somewhat in either direction, but the forward cartwheel just doesn't want to work. I can "pinwheel" or move across the window, but not both at the same time . . . the combination causes my brain to interfere with the proper hand motions and timing. Like everything . . . more flying time needed. Wish I were out today (plenty of wind, but lots of rain with it).

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#137 stroke survivor

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 10:13 PM

Add a stroke affected brain into the mix!!! I get all fouled up trying to get it all together!! Slides - check, rotations - check, together - ARRRGH!!!Posted Image Had to work a lot to just get left to right inverted slides!! Things are getting better, lots of flying time will definitely help, confidence too!! That helped overcome LE right positions!! It will come to all of us that keep trying, practice makes perfect!!! Posted Image

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#138 bartman

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 08:03 AM

I dreamt about it last night!

Someone had the nerve to tell me that I was ending the cartwheels facing the wrong way so I had to go back to sqaure one and sort it all out again. Geez!

Bart

#139 stroke survivor

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 08:32 AM

I dreamt about it last night!

Someone had the nerve to tell me that I was ending the cartwheels facing the wrong way so I had to go back to sqaure one and sort it all out again. Geez!

Bart


A bad case of TMI - Too Much Input!!! Posted Image Use the force, Luke!! (Bart)Posted Image

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#140 SkyPuppet

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:14 AM

I dreamt about it last night!

Someone had the nerve to tell me that I was ending the cartwheels facing the wrong way so I had to go back to sqaure one and sort it all out again. Geez!

Bart



Posted ImagePosted Image

Thinking too much about a subject is one thing, obsessing over it is another Posted Image

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